Water injection

[Loadsamiles]

Huw,

1.4 secs off a 60-100 thime will take a huge amount of extra power and torque with a 1.75 tonne road car.

H

As we know the ME7 ECU will be backing off the throttle, cutting boost, richening the fuelling and pulling timing if the IATs are sky rocketing, or the engine is detting. This pulling of parameters would quite probably loose you up to 50% of your power in such a situation. (your foot may well be on the floor, but the ECU will have the throttle half closed) What Huw is getting from the WI is not "more power", but the ability to now use the power he already had. So there is no surprise in such a huge gain now the engine is being allowed to run more of it's capacity.

If one really understands the workings of the ME7 it is obvious.

[hamish]

As we know the ME7 ECU will be backing off the throttle, cutting boost, richening the fuelling and pulling timing if the IATs are sky rocketing, or the engine is detting. This pulling of parameters would quite probably loose you up to 50% of your power in such a situation. (your foot may well be on the floor, but the ECU will have the throttle half closed) What Huw is getting from the WI is not "more power", but the ability to now use the power he already had. So there is no surprise in such a huge gain now the engine is being allowed to run more of it's capacity.

If one really understands the workings of the ME7 it is obvious.

Now we are getting somewhere !

As anybody will tell you WATER injection doesn't work never has done never will. But Huw doesn't have water injection he is injecting METHANOL which is very different and can give very small gains. Huw has made a number of changes to his car including another remap. Huw's huge gains are not from the METHANOL injection but from alterations in the MAP to raise certain thresholds which are improving the performance of the car anyway.

Like you say.

[hamish]

Here we have the results from the tuning of the 2001 V70 (KC51ECX) by HLM, and subsequently by MTE with added water injection.

The car was mechanically identical between the two dyno runs, the only difference was the Volvotuning / HLM software removed and replaced by MTE software, and the addition of an Aquamist 1S system

Both plots were done on Dynojet dynos (unfortunately one is in Nm and the other in ft/lb)

Both in Nm the HLM / Non WI plot gave 418 Nm of torque, yet the MTE with WI gave 528Nm, a total torque gain between the two states of that very same car of 110Nm, not bad for just a different map and WI.

First map from Hamish and Adam


Then the map from MTE on the very same car fitted with WI

Julian,

Please lets make it clear that wasn't an HLM map. That was mapped by Adam Weber of Chiptuning Ltd under the guidance of Roel van der Brink of RICA Engineering BV so please stop Taring me with that brush. I did at least get rid of them.

I would make a few observations about the dyno plots. There is very little difference in peak power or even the shape of the power curves from the 2 maps. There is a difference in the torque curves indicating differences in the torque limiter mapping. I'm not sure I would be happy putting that amount of torque through your Volvo clutch and DMF.

H

[hamish]

Question for Huw

How much extra ignition advance are you able to run when injection your Methanol ? There are 2 figures 1) is how much more advance did Marco put in the map and 2) What is the actual increase.

Still think you should take me up on a dyno run. Or at the very least try a the drag strip.

[jardon]

Huw,

1.4 secs off a 60-100 thime will take a huge amount of extra power and torque with a 1.75 tonne road car.

H

Thanks. I inject water and methanol Hamish. You confirm that the gain was in the mapping - agreed. Numbers - the last time I gave you those you used them as ammunition in a mindless 30 pumps comment so forgive me if I appear reluctant to comment. What I will say is that the process was simple and objective - increasing the target and watching the ecu retard values. So we set the targets and the car hits them without retard. We went beyond that at one stage and eased back to 'happier' position. I'm not competitive in the slightest so drag strips aren't my thing (besides the number of variables involved if we are trying to evaluate performance). Please refer to my earlier post about your dyno offer. As I posted earlier, I'm not out to get you - you have made this thread the stand off that it is. I know my car is quicker and wai is the reason. If you can't accept that then no loss to me.

[hamish]

Thanks. I inject water and methanol Hamish. You confirm that the gain was in the mapping - agreed. Numbers - the last time I gave you those you used them as ammunition in a mindless 30 pumps comment so forgive me if I appear reluctant to comment. What I will say is that the process was simple and objective - increasing the target and watching the ecu retard values. So we set the targets and the car hits them without retard. We went beyond that at one stage and eased back to 'happier' position. I'm not competitive in the slightest so drag strips aren't my thing (besides the number of variables involved if we are trying to evaluate performance). Please refer to my earlier post about your dyno offer. As I posted earlier, I'm not out to get you - you have made this thread the stand off that it is. I know my car is quicker and wai is the reason. If you can't accept that then no loss to me.

Huw,

Excellent Huw did you try the same process without the Methanol ? Making a note of the difference in the values without retar? I also gave you numbers in the form of a dyno sheet and YOU (and others) used this as ammunition. So please lets not play the victim card. You clearly are competetive as you have boasted about your car being the fastest most powerful 19T car. i appreciate that you would not feel comfortable coming on my dyno that is fine. I never made this a standoff but that is what you and the rest on t5d5 think it is fine. I still stand by what I said WATER injection doesn't work. If however you are injecting methanol and you have made other changes including a complete optimization of your map you will see gains

[Loadsamiles]

Julian,

Please lets make it clear that wasn't an HLM map. That was mapped by Adam Weber of Chiptuning Ltd under the guidance of Roel van der Brink of RICA Engineering BV so please stop Taring me with that brush. I did at least get rid of them.

I would make a few observations about the dyno plots. There is very little difference in peak power or even the shape of the power curves from the 2 maps. There is a difference in the torque curves indicating differences in the torque limiter mapping. I'm not sure I would be happy putting that amount of torque through your Volvo clutch and DMF.

H

I'll give you that acknowledgement, Adam & whoever was pulling his strings was the culprit, however when one is in a business "partnership" one has to take the rough with the smooth. I've had to go and rescue a few of my business partners jobs in my time. That's the point of partnerships.

I was doing everything to allow yourself and Adam to fix the map, but just remember who said "that car doesn't go back on the dyno"



Indeed the power curves are of very similar shape, and that just goes to show that it is predominantly the mechanics of the tune that determine the characteristics.

Overall there is about a 10% ish rise in power from one map to the other, but the torque has risen considerably by. 25%

The flattening of the torque curve on the initial map was mainly due to massively excessive 80 deg + IAT's and the ECU subsequently holding back. Only getting the IAT's down allowed the torque curve to end up without a "flat" on it.

I never used methanol in the WI system on mine as my issues were purely excessive intake temperatures, (no evidence of det on the det-cans when run with the richer MTE map) and water mist alone gave the 20 deg or so reduction in charge air temperature I was looking for. Simply dumping a mist of 20deg water into the 80deg air was enough to soak up sufficient heat to drop and hold the IATs low enough to prevent the ECU pulling back.
When run on the road rather than a dyno the IATs can be reduced by a further 20 deg due to proper air flow.

The WI didn't work as well at higher revs (above 6,000 up till 7,800) on mine, but that was simply due to a constant pressure water feed being over powered by the higher airflows, and there being a greater volume of air passing much quicker.

The dyno plot I posted has 3 immediately consecutive full rev range dyno pulls without any visible loss of power throug heat soak, if anything it goes up on each run. Prior to the WI it was always best on the first run.

The clutch and DMF were fine with that torque, I never had any issues once I had a new clutch fitted at Braydons. They did however have to fit it then adjust it again as it slipped when they first pre-loaded the DMF. 30,000 miles at that level of torque didn't show any further issues.
I must add that I never battered the clutch with drag-race starts or anything, it probably would have failed rather quickly if I did that.

[uncle Albert]

You as a tuner Hamish Mccabletie are an idiot.Are you aware of the reasons water is injected into the intake of an engine or the reasons methanol is used???

You claim that water injection does not work yet you still refuse to show your findings..

Water injection, whether methanol is mixed or not will not see you any power gains, however what it does do is to help in the cooling process of achieving more power.Huw has been as honest as he can be and with prof to back up his theory, yet for some reason you keep shacking you fist at his findings..

I for one would like you to prove your theory with your own findings and not some half backed RR printout that you did not play a hand in..

I other words put up or shut up...

[woz]

I luurve this thread :>) No axe to grind either way, but intrigued by WI - planning to add it to mine with no other changes and test it on the RR.

Will post results. Before I do so, does anyone have any objections to this as a means of providing objective input?? Seems like pretty good testing to me, but I am sure I caould also arrange some 50-80 runs on a quiet motorway if that is deemed less objectionable.

However - I;m not sure I really want to provide definitive results in case we lose the entertainment this thread provides.

Long live H&H

Woz

[Loadsamiles]

It's well worth noting that dyno IATs ARE NOT anywhere near similar to road IAT's, You'd need a 140mph fan for a 4th gear pull to even slightly get as low as "on the road" 4th gear conditions.

Here is an example. (without water injection)

(red trace is temperature)

On the dyno it reaches 70deg.


Same car, 10 mins later on the "road" it only reaches 40

[The Flying Moose]

I luurve this thread :>) No axe to grind either way, but intrigued by WI - planning to add it to mine with no other changes and test it on the RR.

Will post results. Before I do so, does anyone have any objections to this as a means of providing objective input?? Seems like pretty good testing to me, but I am sure I caould also arrange some 50-80 runs on a quiet motorway if that is deemed less objectionable.

However - I;m not sure I really want to provide definitive results in case we lose the entertainment this thread provides.

Long live H&H

Woz

Woz I think that is an excellent Idea and im sure I wont be the only one who will be interested in the results.

[Loadsamiles]

I luurve this thread :>) No axe to grind either way, but intrigued by WI - planning to add it to mine with no other changes and test it on the RR.

Will post results. Before I do so, does anyone have any objections to this as a means of providing objective input?? Seems like pretty good testing to me, but I am sure I caould also arrange some 50-80 runs on a quiet motorway if that is deemed less objectionable.

However - I;m not sure I really want to provide definitive results in case we lose the entertainment this thread provides.

Long live H&H

Woz

Without previously high IATs the water injection system will not really achieve anything and could even make matters worse.

No point taking aspirin when you don't have a headache and then declaring "it doesn't work"

[Loadsamiles]

Also... on cars with an IAT sensor (ME7 and onwards) WI will have a far greater effect than on cars without. Cars without will not be limiting power till det occurs.

As Hamish, Adam and Chris know well if you push hotter and hotter on a car that can't see what hot is, it just goes bang!

[woz]

Without previously high IATs the water injection system will not really achieve anything and could even make matters worse.

No point taking aspirin when you don't have a headache and then declaring "it doesn't work"

Thats a good point. I was wondering about this "it works" vs. "it doesn't work" argument - has anyone defined what working means yet? Did I miss it?

If the aim is to reduce AIT's in your case then it would appear to be case proven.
But if teh aim is to produce more power without doing anything else, then maybe it doesn't work - perhaps H&H are violently agreeing with each other?

Chaps - time for you each to define what you think "WI works" means.

My definition is slightly different as my objective is to reduce the hiccups Lusty suffers under full boost, and allow me to run on a cheaper fuel without the nasty side effects, thereby saving me money without destroying my engine.

WOZ.

[LiamT4]

I'm just going to butt in here and say, as a far as i have heard and read (from a couple of different tuners) for the type of modding that most of us are looking at, wi should not be nceccessary.
As far as i'v been told, with a fmic and good mapping, it shouldn't be needed.

I will make very clear though that these people do not tune volvo's and were talking about low levels of tuning. i'e when just going for slightly bigger than standard turbos, etc, that kind of thing.

Also, that this would be a good thread for us that are less knowledgeable about these things if everyone could just discuss these things without the sh*te thats coming with it.

[Jamest5r]

In a nut-shell then..if you want to thrash the nuts off your motor round a track with wi it will keep the intake temp's down therefore allowing no drop in performance, but for a one off power run on a dyno there's no difference in optimum power as in daily driving?.

[hamish]

You as a tuner Hamish Mccabletie are an idiot.Are you aware of the reasons water is injected into the intake of an engine or the reasons methanol is used???

You claim that water injection does not work yet you still refuse to show your findings..

Water injection, whether methanol is mixed or not will not see you any power gains, however what it does do is to help in the cooling process of achieving more power.Huw has been as honest as he can be and with prof to back up his theory, yet for some reason you keep shacking you fist at his findings..

I for one would like you to prove your theory with your own findings and not some half backed RR printout that you did not play a hand in..

I other words put up or shut up...

Nice first post. Very eloquent.

[t5_monkey]

I just read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW50

And then think... the sweeping statement that 'water injection does not work' with no qualification initially, is making a rod for someone's back!

I mean c'mon.. it's been used since WW2 !!

Water/water+methanol vapour lowers air (and therefore intake) temps, what's in dispute about that?

Engines are heat engines - the differential between temp IN and temp OUT produces the motive energy.

of course different situations and installs may yield differing results, but we're not disputing that someone who doesn't know what to do, may fail to get good results

Seems to me some people are failing to grasp the basic precepts of physics.

[The Flying Moose]

You as a tuner Hamish Mccabletie are an idiot.Are you aware of the reasons water is injected into the intake of an engine or the reasons methanol is used???

You claim that water injection does not work yet you still refuse to show your findings..

Water injection, whether methanol is mixed or not will not see you any power gains, however what it does do is to help in the cooling process of achieving more power.Huw has been as honest as he can be and with prof to back up his theory, yet for some reason you keep shacking you fist at his findings..

I for one would like you to prove your theory with your own findings and not some half backed RR printout that you did not play a hand in..

I other words put up or shut up...

Comments such as those in the above post will not be made welcome here. This has been made very clear. I believe everyone with the exception of said individual above is affording everyone the respect they deserve. Uncle Albert clearly joined simply to make an unwelcomed comment and has been banned for this very reason.

I will now quote from Jeremy Clarskons book "Driven to Distration".

"I respect your right to be able to voice your opinion, it doesnt however mean I agree with it"

[jardon]

Hamish. We disagree but that's not unusual on car forums - what I dislike is the way you assume this forum is your stomping ground. Bullying a fellow member in to submission is fair game? This has nothing to do with T5D5 and you know it - grow up and make a respectable argument that doesn't rely on racist slurs, etc. I don't boast but I try to share the positive in my decidedly up and down experience of Volvo tuning - something I would have dearly valued before meeting you 3 years ago. I have nothing to gain in posting my experience but you appear to have something to lose - the educated will make their own evaluation.