Water injection

[t5_monkey]

well Jardon has some scientific data and evidence.

Why doesn't hamish run a car with and without WI... and we can compare IAT's and power curves?

[jardon]

I would fit it to mine to settle the arguement - but would I have to map it in? The cost for a trial is quite prohibitive. I can see both sides of the arguement but remain still unswayed. I still have some way to go on this tuning journey & will endeavour to annoy Hamish & Jardon alike. Good discussion though. About the most interesting thing I read in a while.

If you drive hard in summer - road or track - and lose some power to rising IATs (less dense charge) and knock induced retard then wai will help you maintain your cold power. My car without wai gets quite flat after caning it a while and I wouldn't go near a track without it.

If you map for it then you will reap a greater benefit even in winter but you certainly notice if it's off.

I love the annoyance so please do - we have such similar set ups it is foolhardy to not discuss them. It is an interesting subject and so easy to bolt on and experiment. I love all the datalogging too.

[GregE102]

Well here we are again!

Hamish has been his normal Belligerent self, and again the evidence against what he knows to be Right when we all tell him otherwise has mounted again!

Even and option was suggested for him and his Loyal supporters to resolve the dispute of Huw's fact's & Findings?

And now nothing?

After reading more evidence I come to the conclusion that Hamish is wrong and dose not know what he is talking about!

Hamish you just keep spouting your own belief's none of us are are interested in your unsubstantiated fact's anymore! I am also so glad that the first time I ever rang you to ask about tuning you where so rude i nether bothered with you again lol

Hew! Great report and very valuable to all in the Volvo Community

Thanks Greg

[JCviggen]

Water will contribute to your AFR. Water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen.

Brilliant. Where exactly in the engine are you breaking H²O into H and O?
If that were possible your kitchen would explode every time you boil an egg.

(water does slightly alter AFR because it is taking up space that air would otherwise, effectively reducing the available oxygen very slightly)

[hamish]

Brilliant. Where exactly in the engine are you breaking H²O into H and O?
If that were possible your kitchen would explode every time you boil an egg.

(water does slightly alter AFR because it is taking up space that air would otherwise, effectively reducing the available oxygen very slightly)

JC,

Did I ever say H & O were going to be broken down in the engine ? NO.

Like you say I said it would alter the AFR because it is taking up space that air and fuel would otherwise.

Regards,
H.

[t5_monkey]

WI increasing detting?

That's a good one

[adam b]

Hello Hamish,

Maybe its time you took those blinkers off and quietly read up about water injection. I'm sure we, as your potential customers, won't mind in the slightest if you change your mind. You don't have to publicly state it or anything, just allow that hard exterior of yours to be softened by the cooling spray of water and meth. Its not a religion or anything, but it might just sooth that troubled soul you've got.

You should always be careful of stating a truth without actually having any evidence to back it up, especially on a car forum you are trying to convince to buy your products.

Remember that there are always potential customers (like me) out there. This makes you look incredibly daft i'm afraid.

Cheers
Adam

[JCviggen]

Did I ever say H & O were going to be broken down in the engine ? NO.

It was certainly implied - otherwise the part about H and O is fairly redundant isn't it? Bit like saying "your AFR will change, the engine is made out of aluminium and steel"

[hamish]

I'm sure there is an abundance of rule bending in Motorsport Hamish but WI was used in all the series I quoted - it may suit your insubstantial argument to conjour up conspiracy theories but it won't wash.

I have offered my own evidence and so have a few others. You can be sure I will be along with more and more and more as the good folk of VPC need to realise that owning a business doesn't give you any credibilty on this subject. You have attempted to make us look silly by scoffing at any references we post - when are we going to see the proof of your opinions? It can only help to strengthen your position if they carry any weight - making snide remarks will not.

Attachment 11150

Huw,

See attached. Similar car to yours similar turbo, slightly more mods. Run with run without says it all Water Injection doesn't work.

I'm happy for you to carry on messing around with WAI you clearly enjoy it. But sadly it doesn't work the science is flawed.

Regards,
H.

[adam b]

Sorry, don't believe that Hamish.

[t5_monkey]

Attachment 11150

Huw,

See attached. Similar car to yours similar turbo, slightly more mods. Run with run without says it all Water Injection doesn't work.

I'm happy for you to carry on messing around with WAI you clearly enjoy it. But sadly it doesn't work the science is flawed.

Regards,
H.

perhaps that should be amended to....

"I can't get Water Injection to work" ?

[Yosser]

perhaps that should be amended to....

"I can't get Water Injection to work" ?

Thanks Ben, that made me laugh

[hamish]

perhaps that should be amended to....

"I can't get Water Injection to work" ?

I thought that too,

I didnt map that car!

Who did ?

Think before taking the piss.

[GregE102]

Well Hamish

When are you going to provide some real evidence?
In front of a live audience?
I have put a suggestion forward wobbly that he buy a WI and you do the Rolling road for free to prove every one wrong which you still have not managed to do?

NO?
Now take your theories and please keep them to your self as no one believe's what your saying anymore!

You have well and truly dug your own hole this time lol

[t5_monkey]

I thought that too,

I didnt map that car!

Who did ?

Think before taking the piss.

If you didn't map the car - why are you posting it up as evidence against someone who has run their own experiments with WI with positive results.

Surely you can't know everything about that plot and car, I've seen plenty of other plots in favour of WI.

[jardon]

Attachment 11150

Huw,

See attached. Similar car to yours similar turbo, slightly more mods. Run with run without says it all Water Injection doesn't work.

I'm happy for you to carry on messing around with WAI you clearly enjoy it. But sadly it doesn't work the science is flawed.

Regards,
H.

So you didn't map it and thats your overwhelming proof? Make an effort if you want some credibility. Based on your "flawed science" and "30 pumps" posts I wouldn't expect you to get a WAI kit fitted - let alone have it mapped appropriately. It is therefore unreasonable of me to ask for your own proof - would you care to present any water injection stories from your volumes of evidence?

Nice to see JC on this thread - we have argued a bit on tuning in the past. Water does take part in combustion with WAI - something to do with conversion to CO and CO2 during early and late combustion stages. I admit I don't know the details but the net result is that AFR doesn't alter much. In my car it doesn't alter AFR at all but this may be due to closed vs open loop fuelling and water occupying some volume in the cylinder as JC says.

Again, mapping is essential for a black and white performance gain - I ran it on a stock WothRLine 19t tune and it made no difference. Running on a stock MTE 19t map it bogged a little and at best with a smaller jet made no difference. I would add that on a hot day with my then stock intercooler I lost less performance when running it - no extra oomph but less loss with increasing heatsoak. The wow moment was when we took the knock limited MTE tune and ran WAI - Marco increased advance from 3000-6000 rpm and immeadiately my previously happy clutch slipped. It took a while to get the clutch situation sussed but last month with the new intercooler in situ we added further advance from 3000-7500 rpm - I have taken 1.4 secs off my 60-100 time compared to the original 19t tune. From my logs 1 second of that was WAI plus mapping and 0.4 was intercooler/MAF pipe/further WAI plus mapping.

[Loadsamiles]

Good grief!

There is a veritable typhoon of buffalo dung emanating from Bromsgrove once again.

When you're in a hole..... Stop digging!

[hamish]

Huw,

1.4 secs off a 60-100 thime will take a huge amount of extra power and torque with a 1.75 tonne road car.

H

[t5_monkey]

Jardon is living, breathing, pooing proof... that some people can get WI to work

[Loadsamiles]

Here we have the results from the tuning of the 2001 V70 (KC51ECX) by HLM, and subsequently by MTE with added water injection.

The car was mechanically identical between the two dyno runs, the only difference was the Volvotuning / HLM software removed and replaced by MTE software, and the addition of an Aquamist 1S system

Both plots were done on Dynojet dynos (unfortunately one is in Nm and the other in ft/lb)

Both in Nm the HLM / Non WI plot gave 418 Nm of torque, yet the MTE with WI gave 528Nm, a total torque gain between the two states of that very same car of 110Nm, not bad for just a different map and WI.

First map from Hamish and Adam


Then the map from MTE on the very same car fitted with WI