Brake temps

Post 808727 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-14 18:36:57

hi guys happy New Year to you all! Just one out of interest really, we all know that racing brakes need to get to a certain temperature to work properly, however is the same to be said for stock brakes? I'm talking about the likes of your euro car parts pagid or brembo pads and discs. Is there a sweet spot? I would assume these aren't really designed to be run too hot and as such will actually get worse but perhaps there is a happy medium. Only reason I ask is that I have never taken my car on the track and don't drive that aggressively in mine so have no experience with how my brakes behave other than cooking some response car brakes at work a few times! So it would be good to know a little more about stock brakes If there is would this temperature be able to be reached or exceeded on spirited driving on normal roads (not driving like a knob)?? Cheers!

Post 808731 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2017-01-14 21:16:15

Standard road pads work well from cold. Which covers 90% plus of modern driving conditions. Important for initial bite.They quickly die off once you get them properly hot . Think of a good 20min blast through a fast but twisty B road. By the end of it you'll be noticing brake fade - the pedal will start to feel dead & the car will slow much more slowly - if you've never experienced this (it's an arse clenching moment when you do) it's best avoided. There are a variety of pads available for fast road/track use that can squeal a bit from cold but once warm bite hard & will continue to do so. There are plenty who run DS2500s or Carbotec pads on standard Volvo discs. Good brake fluid (fresh) is also a must. I drive my cars pretty hard on road and have always run stock brakes, not a problem as you don't push too hard - it's a public road after all. Only ever cooked them properly on a trackday when I wished I was running a harder compound whilst being pushed to brake hard & late by an instructor on a short track (coombe). But proved too be a useful experience. Discs also have a impact on pad performance. Larger, thicker discs obviously take longer to heat up than a smaller thinner disc due to less material, but will retain that heat for longer too. So you need to take that into consideration when choosing the correct combination. Loads of info on interweb. Best bet is to start at fresh OE them work your way up. You might find you reach your limit before the car does :)

Post 808733 by Doingitsideways on 2017-01-14 23:42:55

A couple on here will ascertain to my missing my calling as a destruction tester. :lol: I find that standard pads bite well from cold, even very cold, but cook quickly. The problem is much worse on autos as you have no engine braking. I cooked a set of standard 302s in about 10 mins on a hardcore B-road beasting. They've never been the same since, with plenty of vibration through the wheel. Most would say I've warped the discs, but they're more likely contaminated with friction material. Anyway, like Morgan says, standard are enough for most people and genuine stuff is actually very good until you start looking for the limit. I'll probably be going for DS2500s and maybe Brembo discs when I change, that's pretty much a happy medium.

Post 808743 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-15 07:38:06

Thanks guys, shinsplintz yes I have heard of those pads and was very tempted to get a set but in the end decided to wait as was going to upgrade size from 302 to 320 first and seemed a shame to buy twice (and expensive!). That being said it isn't a cheap upgrade so may be worth just getting the pads as I don't track. Interesting what you guys are saying about good from cold then poor hot, that's how our response cars feel after a good spanking, be it for a surprisingly long time before overheating. Sharpe to bite even hot then nothing more lol. How are performance pads for general daily driving?? I like the odd blast but being public roads etc it's not usually that hard so may be a bit over kill but I don't mind as any brake improvements are a good thing, so long as they aren't rubbish at cold low speeds as could see that getting annoying. Also interesting to note the brake pad affects the fade. Also like you DIS I have a judder at times even when cold. Came on worse after a trip to the alps so maybe warped a cheap disc. My s60 T5 never had a problem with brakes that I noticed but a lot of people seem to dislike the 850 brakes (especially the 275s or whoever stock is) Thanks for your input, I know a bit about brakes etc but never been to a track so don't really know the full capabilities of different setups :)

Post 808744 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2017-01-15 08:31:58

T5D5 will be doing their annual trackday at Castle Coombe at the end of June. Come along if you can & get a few Pax laps-I noticed your brizzle based. It's a mind-blowing experience for the uninitiated how hard & late a well set up car can brake. And keep on doing it lap after lap.Even a big old P2! They're a friendly bunch, last year was my first track day & I wouldn't miss another one as its a great day with knowledgeable folk in very quick Volvo's. One thing I forgot to mention in my original reply was tyres. The best brake set up in the world is never going to stop you on Chinese ditch finders. Another can of worms for you there. :rotfl: Cheers, Morgan

Post 808750 by Tim Williams on 2017-01-15 10:37:21

I'm blind as a bat without my glasses so sorry if I missed something, for any brisk driving with more than a couple of hard applications of the brakes the 280s will not cope with any pads or fluid. You can get away with 302s with just Police pads with care on track and they will be a big improvement over 280s in all conditions. Your driving standard should be sufficient to avoid excessive braking so 302s should be ok, for better than Poilce pads I would advise Carbotec pads but the exact compound would depend on exactly what use the car would get. The better the hot bite the worse they are cold, still better than what you have now but you would get used to the reduction in pedal pressure and then get a shock when they are cold.

Post 808753 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-15 11:56:27

Thanks Morgan yes I went to that last year just for a browse and was lovely to meet some of the guys I speak to/know of well from here and T5d5. As you say all were very accommodating and lovely people. Thoroughly enjoyed the trip out in Tims white weapon too amongst others! Was wondering when it would be on again as I'd love to go and possibly even take my car around a but if I can afford it! Thanks tim so sounds like a good upgrade if your willing to press a bit harder lol, but maybe not the highest performance pads if just for road?? Thanks guys!

Post 808754 by Tim Williams on 2017-01-15 13:28:09

Just Police pads fro road use and 302s and it will be far better than what you have.

Post 808768 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-15 20:05:26

Thanks Tim, I already have the 302S but it would be interesting to compare whatever pads I have against the police ones, is there really much difference?

Post 808769 by Shinsplintz 101 on 2017-01-15 21:12:22

Phone up RUFE & order some. Less than 40 quid last time I bought them for my 850 iirc. Snap them in & see how you get on.

Post 808770 by LiamT4 on 2017-01-15 22:52:35

I always found standard volvo pads fade pretty quick.

Post 808779 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-16 11:39:03

What do you use Liam??

Post 808780 by MoleT-5R on 2017-01-16 11:52:07

[QUOTE=LiamT4;808770]I always found standard volvo pads fade pretty quick.[/QUOTE] That could be because you had auto's, so no real engine braking and your relying on the friction material more than we do In a manual

Post 808784 by stribo on 2017-01-16 16:25:52

I cooked my standard Volvo pads at Trax a few years back, I'm sure Pedro or JT has a video of mine, braking for Becketts with smoke pouring from the front wheels. I use DS2500 pads now with Volvo discs, and last time out got them so hot that when I parked up, the centre caps melted, and fell out of the wheels. :)

Post 808789 by LiamT4 on 2017-01-16 20:03:48

[QUOTE=Bigsi15;808779]What do you use Liam??[/QUOTE] In the past, i have used pagid, ferodo and EBC red stuff. Some people seem to have a real dislike for EBC red stuff, but i thought they were a very good fast road pad. I had them on my s40 t4 and compared to the standard pads on my mates t4, they were miles better. [QUOTE=MoleT-5R;808780]That could be because you had auto's, so no real engine braking and your relying on the friction material more than we do In a manual[/QUOTE] You're probably right. No problems with my current car though, but that does have slightly larger brakes than what the volvos had, with 348mm front discs ;)

Post 808794 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-16 22:36:13

Lol Awsome but also unfortunate! Would love to see that video... lol [QUOTE=stribo;808784]I cooked my standard Volvo pads at Trax a few years back, I'm sure Pedro or JT has a video of mine, braking for Becketts with smoke pouring from the front wheels. I use DS2500 pads now with Volvo discs, and last time out got them so hot that when I parked up, the centre caps melted, and fell out of the wheels. :)[/QUOTE]

Post 808795 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-16 22:39:37

Hmm seems to be mixed consensus then on the police pads. I don't use my car on the track and if I did it would only be for one day a year at most so they are probably the favourite depending on cost, but the perfectionist part of me also thinks why not get the best there is if it's reasonably affordable! Are performance pads really that rubbish for normal use and cold stops, or are they as good as your basic pads with the added benefit of higher temperature control? If they are no good cold then it seems silly to spend double the cost of a good set of police pads when they're never going to get used

Post 808796 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-16 22:40:24

Would love to see that video... lol

Post 808805 by thunderace on 2017-01-17 09:36:51

Ha, yes a fine can of worms. Best tyres, most beautiful woman? Such simple questions. FWIW I had standard pads on 280's, ok for general use but fade under spirited conditions. Changed to Pagid blues on 302's, so much better, different world. Great feel and bite from cold, even in mid winter. Brilliant on road and track. This would be my choice or a similar Carbotech. Ferodo DS2500's did not work for me at all, no better than Volvo pads. Just my opinion of course..........

Post 808828 by LiamT4 on 2017-01-17 19:14:57

I found, with a fast road pad like ebc red stuff, it was only when gently breaking when cold that they lacked initial bite. Once you'd braked a few times they were fine. It's not something i'd worry about. After cooking the brakes on his t4, my mate used a "police spec" pad (i think they were a pagid pad but can't remember for sure) and they didn't fade like the standard pads and were excellent from cold. It's more the track focused pads which are morel likely to struggle, and squeal, when cold.

Post 808840 by Bigsi15 on 2017-01-18 00:25:24

Looking like police spec may be the best and cheapest option to start with, will have to chat to rufe and see what he can do... anyone know the part numbers?? thanks guys! Always interesting to hear other people's experiences :)