Ignition advance and octaan levels?

[Marc Lenssen]

Hello All,

2002 S60 T5, 150 K miles. Car came with a lite tune of local origin.

In the Netherlands we have ££££ty gas, base is 95 octaan and then to get to 98 additives are used. One of the few imported original 98 octaan gasolines (assumed through several forums) is BP Ultimate. I thus always get BP Ultimate. For a while I have suffered a minor issues at idle, the car will idel fine and then drop a beat somehow... as if it wants to stall...but only very briefly and it never actually stalls...well the engine doesn''t, my heart almost every does.. :-)

The other day I ran low and stopped at a Gulf station, they advertise something called Challenger, I went inside and asked if that was a 98 octaan. The boy at the cashregister said that it used to be a 100 octaan but the had understood that by now it was also a (souped up 95) 98. So I filled up.

After driving for a while I noticed that he sound of my engine quieted down, idle was stronger and the dips during idle were much softer or not there at all. RPM''s above 4000 where less noisy also. It didn''t have the kick on full throttle but boost built up nice to 17 psi anyway. Drove around for 2 days wondering whether this challenger is not a near 98 octaan (97 octaan such as the shell V power is in the NL) and that the lack of heavy kick in the but was caused by a less aggressive advance ( or retardation) of the ignition, driving on a lower octaan fual then before. To test this I bought a wynns octane booster and added the bottle to a half full tank... drove around for a bit to give it time to mix with the gas and to let the ignition get used to it....didn''t really feel any difference but the idle drop is back...with a vengeance.... nice steady idle and the for 1 second a heavy drop and near stall.... more aggressive then before.
Does this sound like ignition behavior? Or familiar to any one at all? I thought that our T5''s really liked as much octaan as possible....whereby 98 octaan can not really be considered something special....I have fairly new candles (Volvo original) new coils (IPD heavy duty) and the ETM has been cleaned recently.

[abdul]

No not had any issues like that

[M-R-P]

The idle drop is something I've been trying to identify for some time. New injectors, plugs, coils, replaced ETM and even a remap (autotech) still haven't gotten rid of it, although it has calmed down a lot.
The problem with a lot of performance fuels is they have their octane boosted by bio-ethanol. This does the same job as true 97/98/99 by reducing knock and det but has less energy than true 97 (like V-power Nitro+). You'll find your car goes no better but uses more fuel than real performance fuel.
The same goes for the additives - bio-ethanol is probably the main ingredient.

Since the remap, I only use V-Power as even the BP ultimate doesn't have the same kick and the engine is louder (harsher?).

[Jamest5r]

Have you checked your maf as that can cause a momentary loss every mow and then at idle and will feel like it's going to stall

[Marc Lenssen]

Maf is new and original Bosch... don't know what to check on the MAF...

And you guys in the UK are lucky....your V Power has decent octane... in the Netherlands we get all the watered down stuff (95 0ctane plus additives, as all Dutch gasoline is)..... And yes, the engine runs a bit louder/harscher on BP ultimate but also pulls harder than on the Dutch V power....
On the Challenger stuff from Gulf I also have less hesitation when pulling at 1/3 throttle from low rpm''s... on the supposedly true 98 Octane ultimate it hesitates more pronounced. I''ll start by getting the original mapping back on..no idea if there are any alterations to the ignition settings in the mapping that is currently on....

[M-R-P]

The standard map is better suited to lower octane but the handbook does recommend 97 or higher.

[Marc Lenssen]

I will bring the original map back on it on Friday. MRP; the V power you guys have in the UK, what is the octane in that? In the Netherlands it is claimed to have 97 and is therefore not allowed to be sold as 98. But most forum members here say it is a 95 plus some dopes... Somehow every one here is convinced that the only true 98 is the BP ultimate, it is distributed out of Belgium where the 98 is more standard than in the Netherlands. All gasoline coming in through the Rotterdam distributors are 95 octane and are than doped according to each brand's specs... B*stards!!!

[M-R-P]

I honestly can't remember if V-power nitro+ is 97 or 99 but all the cars I know of, tuned or standard, run better with it than any other fuel. obviously, there'll be different opinions and I'm just speaking from personal experience but the difference is considerable.

[partsforvolvos.com]

marc, do you have E85 in the Netherlands? if you do, swap to that . all the guys who run it in Sweden (pump fuel there) get more power because it prevents detonation and allows more boost but it does need a different map.

[V70 Graham]

I honestly can't remember if V-power nitro+ is 97 or 99 but all the cars I know of, tuned or standard, run better with it than any other fuel. obviously, there'll be different opinions and I'm just speaking from personal experience but the difference is considerable.

It's 99 octane......and my car certainly likes it.

[ExternalError]

I agree also my car enjoys drinking V-power, BP for me made it feel slugish compared to vpower and I wont even talk about supermarket fuel as i wouldnt put that in my petrol mower never mind my volvo

And sorry I cant help with the OP issue, never run into that problem

[claymore]

Yep my car hates BP ultimate, but likes V power and loves Tesco Momentum.

[Marc Lenssen]

You guys get all the goodies over there.. :-).... V power here is a lower octane fuel....
The weird thing though is that I have idle dips on BP ultimate (which is considered the better fuel over here) and none on Gulf challenger....until almost directly after adding an octane booster from Wynns..... must be Sh*te stuff then....
So if BP Ultimate is the higher octane fuel and I upped the octane on the Gulf challenger it means I get hick ups on higher octane and not on slightly lower (clean Gulf Challenger)..... Weird right? I would expect it the other way around. I''ll get the tune off and also try a 97 octane V power, although I remember from previous T5''s that they get slow on v power, smooth and quiet but slow...

[M-R-P]

Yep my car hates BP ultimate, but likes V power and loves Tesco Momentum.

Momentum is one of those fuels that has it's octane boosted with bio ethanol and the most annoying thing...

Tesco gets a kickback off the government for selling a part-bio fuel!

[stribo]

Gulf make good fuels, we generally don't get them roadside over here, but if you go to Silverstone they have Gulf race fuel (102 octane), not sure Joe Public can buy it though.

[Jamest5r]

Gulf make good fuels, we generally don't get them roadside over here, but if you go to Silverstone they have Gulf race fuel (102 octane), not sure Joe Public can buy it though.

Yep you can well at trax you could

[stribo]

Yep you can well at trax you could

Cool, wasn't sure, don't think it was cheap though.

[Marc Lenssen]

For sure not available here :-(
Frustrated as I was I had to go for another spin and see what' s up. She started up a bit hesitant, which she never does but took off normally. Warmed her up again on the freeway and then onto the backroads for some thrashing....Still a bit hesitant at small throttle changes (opening up) but she felt strong... Then back into town with a lot of waiting in front of the lights... no hick ups... no funny idle drops... steady as a rock :-)
Before I left I made sure that I had actually properly closed the gas cap after putting in the octane booster. I didn''t turn the cap past it's click somehow. So either these engines are as sensitive to slight pressure changes in the tank (like my previous beemers) or the engine had to get used a bit to the additives and gave a hick up... I don't care which one of the two as long as she stays stable and strong :-)
The hesitation at light throttle while at speed; can this have to do with the solenoid? The one that is on is a Volvo one and new (outlet to the wastegate looks to have a slightly larger diameter then my old one). With the old one on she also has a hesitation but that one has done a lot of kilometers. I can boost her up to 17 psi but the hesitation happens at way lower pressures, mostly around the point where vacuum turn to boost. Would an upgraded solenoid be of any help? The IPD one for instance?

[stribo]

I personally don't think the IPD ones are any better than the standard Volvo one, but I haven't done a comparison. Our S60R runs fine with the standard Volvo one (which was renewed about 6 months ago) Maybe a coilpack is starting to breakdown, how long have the spark plugs been in? Maybe plug a code reader in to see if that throws anything up.

[Marc Lenssen]

Coils and plugs and map and maf and solenoid where all replaced a few months ago. Only non originals are the coils, these are the IPD heavy duty something... they were cheaper then the original coils...
First step will be to get the mapping back to original. Simply to rule out any strange parameters in the current mapping. The mapping has been done by a local guy who gets good recommendations on the Dutch forums and also supplies some mappings to the UK, mostly Volkswagen and Audi though. This mapping is supposed to only make changes in the full throttle mapping but it somehow also affects the lower ranges. (for instance by changing the pedal travel needed to provoke full throttle).