Tuning S60 2.4T T5

[MattM]

My autotech map is an excellent custom map. & Yes it was done on the HLM dyno. I know from both Torque results & the data from the HLM dyno that the intake temps do not require WI.

Having seen results on the dyno from other tuned 2.4 T5s that you should give HLM some serious consideration.

Just waiting for Hamish to respond to a PM, but I'm very keen on going to HLM. It's not the closest to them (almost 2 hours away) but there aren't many places near me (Milton Keynes).

[Wobbly Dave]

Also Wegal - http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/member.php?u=2690 is worth speaking to as he has a 2.4 t5 auto tuned by HLM.

[T5frankie]

little bit off topic but been thinking about getting a v70r are they a 2.5 or are they a 2.4 also i have heared about a few cases of cracked liners with these so how do they stand with tuning

they are a 2.5 pete

[smithy]

Maybe we could lower the inter forum fences for one day. I'd be up for it, I'd do a day at brunters for a few fast straight runs over a track day as I'd find that more appealing, but then that probably puts me in the minority lol

sounds good to me depending on price though

[Wobbly Dave]

I've done brunters - twice including my 120mph spin out in 2007. It's not as interesting as Cadwell or Oulton park but a bit safer for all you scardy cats.

Sadly all the old drifto photos were lost in the great crash of 2008 -

http://www.bigredvolvos.co.uk/galler...e_airfield.htm

This is all I have - with the Ninja up my ass!

[smithy]

go to hamish hlm you will not be disapointed mate

[jardon]

My autotech map is an excellent custom map. & Yes it was done on the HLM dyno. I know from both Torque results & the data from the HLM dyno that the intake temps do not require WI.

Having seen results on the dyno from other tuned 2.4 T5s that you should give HLM some serious consideration.

I'm interested in Autotech so not looking to pick (big) holes in this point of view. How much experience of road/track mapping do you have? Come to that how much non-Hamish Volvo mapping experience do you have?

With earlier cars the knock detection is poor enough to allow a reasonable level of advance on a dyno vs road (it will self destruct eventually of course). in the ME7+ cars (the OP included) the knock sensors will have field day and reduce advance on a dyno long before they will on the road - on the 2.4 engine we have seen 10+ degrees of retard on dynos relative to the road. That's a huge loss in power that you have missed by only tuning on a dyno.

Also, the earlier cars have a cable throttle and will make max power at WOT every time. With our later vehicles torque is "on demand" and the ecu will simply supply enough boost for a given dyno loading (common error) and not necessarily compare well with what happens on the road. My HLM and WothRLine maps were dyno "proved" and written respectively and both were disappointing even though both claimed to be the best while rubbishing the competition.

The reality is that all tuners claim to be the best - Marco included - but trying before you buy is how I would go about choosing if I started again. Dyno plots and tuning company rhetroic leave me cold from a potential sales perspective - I accept a dyno may help prove that boost/fuelling is as expected but these are more accurately datalogged on road. Power and torque curves are just maths and tell us nothing about pedal response etc. Road tuning doesn't offer the pretty curves but does develop maps that feel nice to drive and optimise performance in later cars. Just saying.

[LiamT4]

But wouldn't you agree that maybe some tuners can get more out of dynos than others?

As i'v already said, if someone like norris designs or C A automotive will do the majority of there cars on a dyno (and they do some very powerfull cars), then they must be good enough for the majority of cars.

[jardon]

But wouldn't you agree that maybe some tuners can get more out of dynos than others?

As i'v already said, if someone like norris designs or C A automotive will do the majority of there cars on a dyno (and they do some very powerfull cars), then they must be good enough for the majority of cars.

I would say there is a great variability in tuning skill - dyno or road.

I've heard of Norris Designs but have no way of telling if they tune on track as well as dyno - anybody? They also build some very high power screamers for drag not road use so it would be difficult to prove that dyno tuning (if thats all they do) is "good enough for the majority" on that basis. I do understand why why they are used from a "how much did we gain with this mod" perspective - this is not petty stubborness. Just an observation born out of my own experience and a slowly growing understanding of how ME7+ ECUs work.

[p fandango]

With earlier cars the knock detection is poor enough to allow a reasonable level of advance on a dyno vs road (it will self destruct eventually of course). in the ME7+ cars (the OP included) the knock sensors will have field day and reduce advance on a dyno long before they will on the road - on the 2.4 engine we have seen 10+ degrees of retard on dynos relative to the road. That's a huge loss in power that you have missed by only tuning on a dyno

funny you say that, because when i had Bonny on the dyno i especially asked them to measure the advance during its session. It didn't retard the ignition till about 5-6runs in, & then it was quite evident as the power had fell thru the floor & was a very noticable from the graph.

[LiamT4]

I would say there is a great variability in tuning skill - dyno or road.

I've heard of Norris Designs but have no way of telling if they tune on track as well as dyno - anybody? They also build some very high power screamers for drag not road use so it would be difficult to prove that dyno tuning (if thats all they do) is "good enough for the majority" on that basis. I do understand why why they are used from a "how much did we gain with this mod" perspective - this is not petty stubborness. Just an observation born out of my own experience and a slowly growing understanding of how ME7+ ECUs work.

They do both.
They do most of their "normal" cars on a dyno, but they do the race/track cars on both, as i'd imagine most places that do 800bhp+ cars would.
They'd be mad not too wouldn't they.

C A autos do most of theres on a dyno, but will then also map them on the road if the car has any issues. (at brunters)

Not knocking tuning on the road at all, as it can be a very good way of tuning, just trying to point out that mapping a car on a dyno can be perfectly fine, with the correct tools and knowledge.

[jardon]

funny you say that, because when i had Bonny on the dyno i especially asked them to measure the advance during its session. It didn't retard the ignition till about 5-6runs in, & then it was quite evident as the power had fell thru the floor & was a very noticable from the graph.

Not sure if that's concurring with what I wrote or not - I think it is! The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno. If the car is only being tuned a dyno then there will be no retard logged as the tuner will back off when the knock limit is reached. On road with much colder intake air and cooler engine bays that threshold is several degrees further on with our cars - thats the "lost power" a dyno fails to find. Road tuning lends itself more to ME7+ in this respect as the knock control is in a different league to 4.3/4.4 vehicles.

[jardon]

They do both.
They do most of their "normal" cars on a dyno, but they do the race/track cars on both, as i'd imagine most places that do 800bhp+ cars would.
They'd be mad not too wouldn't they.

C A autos do most of theres on a dyno, but will then also map them on the road if the car has any issues. (at brunters)

Not knocking tuning on the road at all, as it can be a very good way of tuning, just trying to point out that mapping a car on a dyno can be perfectly fine, with the correct tools and knowledge.

A dyno will get you close - I think we agree and I do accept your point. Define "fine" - if thats "will do for a road car" then I will take road tuning or a combo any day of the week (still agreeing!).

[LiamT4]

A dyno will get you close - I think we agree and I do accept your point. Define "fine" - if thats "will do for a road car" then I will take road tuning or a combo any day of the week (still agreeing!).

I totally see why you have your car mapped like that.
If i were to take a car somewhere to have a custom map and that person/company has had good results with on road mapping then that would be totally fine for me.
If they have had good results in the past from mapping on a dyno, then that would be ok by me too.

Whatever the company thinks is appropriate for the car and level of tune.

[p fandango]

Not sure if that's concurring with what I wrote or not - I think it is! The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno. If the car is only being tuned a dyno then there will be no retard logged as the tuner will back off when the knock limit is reached. On road with much colder intake air and cooler engine bays that threshold is several degrees further on with our cars - thats the "lost power" a dyno fails to find. Road tuning lends itself more to ME7+ in this respect as the knock control is in a different league to 4.3/4.4 vehicles.

i was trying to point out it doesn't retard the ignition on a dyno quite as soon as made out, as i say it took 5-6 runs before it decided it needed to adjust the timing to make up for any issues. That was with an open cone filter which is affect more by the engine bay heat. It also didn't just back the timing a bit when it got to that level, it did it in one big step which made it very noticable. If a tuner can't tell by that time that its getting hot & losing power then they shouldn't be touching cars in the first place lol

[jardon]

i was trying to point out it doesn't retard the ignition on a dyno quite as soon as made out, as i say it took 5-6 runs before it decided it needed to adjust the timing to make up for any issues. That was with an open cone filter which is affect more by the engine bay heat. It also didn't just back the timing a bit when it got to that level, it did it in one big step which made it very noticable. If a tuner can't tell by that time that its getting hot & losing power then they shouldn't be touching cars in the first place lol

Thanks Pedro. Some cars may never pull back timing if not tuned that close enough to the knock threshold. Forgive my ignorance as I don't know if Bonny is mapped but if so you are not particularly near the knock threshold. Ashok developed a 2.4 tune with Marco a year ago that took the ignition curve to near race fuel values - admittedly with an Aquamist kit though the principles are no different without. On a dyno - even with Aquamist on - there was an immeadiate loss of 10 degrees advance compared to the road logs. If you tune for optimal ignition advance on the road you will not maintain it on a dyno. The nice thing about tuning at Bruntingthorpe is that engine temps don't rise to anywhere near the same extent as on a dyno. My advance curve is pretty radical and it didn't retard from target lap after lap.

[turbo-tuner]

The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno.

That depends on several factors -

1. The ambient conditions (some tuners are equipped with climate controlled dyno cells).

2. The dyno fan capability (some tuners have fans capable of exceeding well over 100 mph with suitable volume).

3. The type of dyno testing. Normal "dyno runs" as you are referring to will result in intake temps climbing as you go through the rev range. But advanced static load testing techniques can overcome this.

I'm not debating dyno v road mapping and the reasons for choosing one over the other - all I'm saying is that there is a lot more to dyno testing than the simplistic explanations you have given. If the tuner uses all the right tools at his disposal, then the issue of road/dyno mapping becomes irrelevant because you can see on the dyno when the ignition is retarding and what is causing it. Therefore, if your dyno facility has the capability of minimising problems with climbing intake temperatures (see the 3 points above), there is no reason why you can't develop a perfectly good tune on the dyno.

Granted, driveability tuning is a different story, but the best dynos are capable of doing this using simulated road testing, minimising the amount of fine tuning required on a real road.

Let's face it, even Volvo doesn't get driveability spot on! It's common for new models to have revised software (and sometimes hardware) installed later on in order to fix driveability problems such as poor response from standstill, hesitation at certain rpm and load points etc.

[jardon]

That depends on several factors -

1. The ambient conditions (some tuners are equipped with climate controlled dyno cells).

2. The dyno fan capability (some tuners have fans capable of exceeding well over 100 mph with suitable volume).

3. The type of dyno testing. Normal "dyno runs" as you are referring to will result in intake temps climbing as you go through the rev range. But advanced static load testing techniques can overcome this.

I'm not debating dyno v road mapping and the reasons for choosing one over the other - all I'm saying is that there is a lot more to dyno testing than the simplistic explanations you have given. If the tuner uses all the right tools at his disposal, then the issue of road/dyno mapping becomes irrelevant because you can see on the dyno when the ignition is retarding and what is causing it. Therefore, if your dyno facility has the capability of minimising problems with climbing intake temperatures (see the 3 points above), there is no reason why you can't develop a perfectly good tune on the dyno.

Granted, driveability tuning is a different story, but the best dynos are capable of doing this using simulated road testing, minimising the amount of fine tuning required on a real road.

Let's face it, even Volvo doesn't get driveability spot on! It's common for new models to have revised software (and sometime hardware) installed later on in order to fix driveability problems such as poor response from standstill, hesitation at certain rpm and load points etc.

I apologise if I've been ranting. You do present a more positive if dare I say it ideal view of dyno tuning. Advanced driveabilty dyno mapping and adequate temperature control are however not the norm. In fairness to you I have presented an ideal view of road tuning but it is based on real world experience and the significant contrast in results of dyno vs road mapping. I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

[turbo-tuner]

I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

Me too!

I think the problem with the usual dyno testing you see on a typical dyno day (which is what I think you are referring to as "the norm") is that it is in no way representative of how we drive on the road. For example, on a petrol car a typical dyno day test is done by flooring it in 4th gear from say 1500 rpm to the red line (say 7000 rpm). But who actually drives like this in real life? With the exception of Wobbly Dave ( ), probably nobody! When overtaking, for example, most people will probably change down a gear and start from 3500-4000 rpm, then nail it.

[LiamT4]

I apologise if I've been ranting. You do present a more positive if dare I say it ideal view of dyno tuning. Advanced driveabilty dyno mapping and adequate temperature control are however not the norm. In fairness to you I have presented an ideal view of road tuning but it is based on real world experience and the significant contrast in results of dyno vs road mapping. I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

lol. You've not been ranting, been putting your views and experience across quite well.