Water injection

[jardon]

speak of the devil

Hi Monkey - I edited out the 401bhp comment as it sounded a bit cheeky when I read it back to myself. 19t's are not going anywhere close to 400 bhp - even fettled ones. They are too small to flow lots of air at high revs and will encounter high IAT's/EGT's even at moderate boost levels. Exactly the cirumstances where WI will help - our stock turbos will all struggle when pushed hard. Thanks for the shout though.

[t5_monkey]

Hi Monkey - I edited out the 401bhp comment as it sounded a bit cheeky when I read it back to myself. 19t's are not going anywhere close to 400 bhp - even fettled ones. They are too small to flow lots of air at high revs and will encounter high IAT's/EGT's even at moderate boost levels. Exactly the cirumstances where WI will help - our stock turbos will all struggle when pushed hard. Thanks for the shout though.

Anyone who sees the vid would I'm sure confer that your car is an absolute animal regardless of the power output... and dyno prints are hardly cut and dry anyway.

If i ever get around to changing mine, esp to an S60... I may butter you up to get the info on how copy your spec

[LiamT4]

I think you're flawed! You seem to have a lot to say about a lot of stuff you know nothing about !! lol!

Can't you disagree with people without looking like your trying to cause an argument?
There are people on this thread that have different opinions but do not look like they are having a go.

[jardon]

Anyone who sees the vid would I'm sure confer that your car is an absolute animal regardless of the power output... and dyno prints are hardly cut and dry anyway.

If i ever get around to changing mine, esp to an S60... I may butter you up to get the info on how copy your spec

It doesn't feel that quick I must be honest and it really is fairly standard for a well tuned 18t/19t based Volvo. Running methanol injection and adjusting the map for it shaved a second off my 3rd gear 60-100 wihout any other hardware changes.

Check this thread for some idea of what 60-100 times, etc are representative (apologies for cross forum posting but I haven't seen a similar thread here):

http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/9222-te...ge__hl__tested

The Garrett powered cars are lightened I think but still very quick. Tims is still "full fat" and takes 4.5 secs 60-100 from memory.

I did none of my own work (except the aquamist oddly enough) and took advantage of advice from Tim Williams, Ashok (Pyaap), Don Norchi (Kalmar Union) and Marco (MTE) amongst others. Tim and Marco did the hands-on stuff and continue to do so. The hardware is a selection of "old faithful" but good quality bolt-ons.

Importantly, all the decisions were evidence based and tirelessly researched. Unfounded opinions should be treated with caution - I have that T-shirt. The OP should be mindful of this.

[Wobbly Dave]

Can I ask where abouts the injection is placed and what turbo pressure you are triggering the water injection.

[jardon]

Can I ask where abouts the injection is placed and what turbo pressure you are triggering the water injection.

Hey Dave,

the jet is just before the turn in the post-intercooler pipe:



I have it set to trigger at 0.7 bar - my boost peaks at 1.4-1.5 bar and peters out to around 1.0-1.1 bar at the redline so at no point does the system cut out under load. It will run without hesitation at lower trigger pressures but for no gain. Reassuringly the car runs happily if I turn the Aquamist off and drive hard as ME7+ has the ability to detect onset of knock and retard the ignition safely. No sweat for the later cars.

Trial and error is key - methanol works for me and water was so-so. My car runs Lambda 0.73 under load - perhaps leaner with water would be my next "experiment" but I'm happy with the way things are for now.

[t5_monkey]

It doesn't feel that quick I must be honest and it really is fairly standard for a well tuned 18t/19t based Volvo. Running methanol injection and adjusting the map for it shaved a second off my 3rd gear 60-100 wihout any other hardware changes.

Check this thread for some idea of what 60-100 times, etc are representative (apologies for cross forum posting but I haven't seen a similar thread here):

http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/9222-te...ge__hl__tested

The Garrett powered cars are lightened I think but still very quick. Tims is still "full fat" and takes 4.5 secs 60-100 from memory.

I did none of my own work (except the aquamist oddly enough) and took advantage of advice from Tim Williams, Ashok (Pyaap), Don Norchi (Kalmar Union) and Marco (MTE) amongst others. Tim and Marco did the hands-on stuff and continue to do so. The hardware is a selection of "old faithful" but good quality bolt-ons.

Importantly, all the decisions were evidence based and tirelessly researched. Unfounded opinions should be treated with caution - I have that T-shirt. The OP should be mindful of this.

Great post - and I think some brilliant advice - careful research! you can take as long as you want until you've bought the kit... then you're stuck with it.

I learnt that after getting a BSR map which can't be custom tuned.

[gotmeaT-5]

didnt see the point of making a new post on Water injection when one was running so sorry for hijacking.

After reading the following

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Both suggest I can use plain distilled/RO water and methylated Spirits in place of Methanol has anyone done this ? Will let you know how it goes [hopefully not with a big bang]

[jardon]

Haven't tried methylated spirit and I would be inclined to call the supplier of your kit to check pump compatibility with anything other than water. I have run tap water and methanol or a mix. The Aquamist race pumps and fittings are ok with neat methanol but I think earlier versions were not.

[Wobbly Dave]

I still will not be buying. But hey - I still could be wrong.

[hamish]

I still will not be buying. But hey - I still could be wrong.

I'm still not buying it either. I've always seen a drop in power and torque on the dyno with water injection.

P.S. What a fantastic day on Monday I trust you and Ellen are still buzzing. Made it back in 7 hours, hit W. Brom. at exactly the wrong time, av. 42 mpg and the only water injection was Highland Spring!

Regards,
H.

[nobananas]

Anyone thought about other methods to bring the temps down. What about water to air charge coolers, supposed to be more effieciant then air to air. Then there's CO2 injection, doesn't actually inject into the engine but can be used around the manifold area (a suitable inlet manifold would have to be constructed which may make it a little pricey !) to bring down the temps just before the air enters the engine.

[p fandango]

Anyone thought about other methods to bring the temps down. What about water to air charge coolers, supposed to be more effieciant then air to air. Then there's CO2 injection, doesn't actually inject into the engine but can be used around the manifold area (a suitable inlet manifold would have to be constructed which may make it a little pricey !) to bring down the temps just before the air enters the engine.

when i had nitrous on BT i was going to get an intercooler spray bar, but the only time i really thrash my cars is on the strip, & they don't like things like that

[S70T5Chris]

Why do you always have to be so derisory. Have I said or done something to upset you??

Sorry Dave, it was out of order. I was in a bad mood.

Congratulations on getting wed, but you know you're ££££ed now, right?

[jardon]

I'm still not buying it either. I've always seen a drop in power and torque on the dyno with water injection.

P.S. What a fantastic day on Monday I trust you and Ellen are still buzzing. Made it back in 7 hours, hit W. Brom. at exactly the wrong time, av. 42 mpg and the only water injection was Highland Spring!

Regards,
H.

If you want the extra power then tuning for it is a must (obviously). Injecting water and not optimising ignition advance/fuelling/boost may result in less power (if the car is already running into knock and the ecu pulls timing then water/methanol injection in appropriate quantities will help). Again, it's trial and error and less suited to mild off the shelf maps if gaining power is the aim. If you are nowhere near the knock threshold then WI is not for you and may in fact push EGT's up. Ability to accurately datalog and interpret the results before adjusting software is essential if significant power gains are to be made. This sounds like witchcraft but in reality we are talking about back to basics tuning principles. In my experience with MTE it is a cheap but very effective bolt on for ME7 vehicles.

[wegal]

If your going to put the CO2 systems on then I would change the CO2 for nitrogen, its a LOT colder, so you can use less, which means its cheaper to run. If you use it to cool the fuel rail then you will need to be careful of the pressures as liquid nitrogen will freeze petrol solid.

Ive seen the CO2 sytem with a rail system around the intercooler, it looks great when staionary but at high speed I doubt it has time to cool the charge and it will only cool the outer edges of the intercooler. The whole CO2 system for cooling air is basically pointless.

Water / methanol is not a power increase system, it helps prevent knock, pretty much end of. You can get a smoother and more consistant release of power, it can also help to overcome heat soak of the intercooler which the standard IC on the S60 suffers from badly ( especially when remapped ) Drive my S60 up the motorway for 100 miles then try it round country lanes, it feels like a stock map as the intake temps are too high, had the same problem on track days, after the first few laps of the day the whole air cooling system is to hot to really work properly and the car feels "flat"

I know that the intake temps have gone over 60 degrees C because you cant touch any of the intercooler pipe work ( the human hand can tolerate 60 degrees, if its uncomfortable to touch then its over 60)

FMIC first for me, if that still doesnt produce the results I will be fitting WM to mine. Its proven technology and unless im mistaken it was used on the earlier subaru rally cars ( or was it the mitsi evo's... getting old I forget)

The amount of water that you are injecting is tiny releative to the amount of air going through the system, on a wet day the relative humidity of the air will be higher than on a dry day with the water injecting. You are not filling the chambers with water, you are putting tiny amounts of water into the air stream, that water evaporates and cools the air ( water has very high specific heat capacity, so a little does a lot ) In the chamber the water continues to absorb some of the latent heat in the whole engine system. It doesnt increase power, it simply stops the loss of power due to over hot intake temps.

If you see a power drop on the dyno then I suspect that this is due to insufficient air flow into the air intake system, with the best will in the world a fan will never recreate the airflow volume and pressures over the air intake system that driving down the road at 70 mph would do, and the problem gets even bigger at 140mph on a dyno.

If you reduce your air intake temps by 30 degrees C you allow the engine to work better.

[RobbieH]

After reading the following

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Both suggest I can use plain distilled/RO water and methylated Spirits in place of Methanol has anyone done this ? Will let you know how it goes [hopefully not with a big bang]

If your going to put the CO2 systems on then I would change the CO2 for nitrogen, its a LOT colder, so you can use less, which means its cheaper to run. If you use it to cool the fuel rail then you will need to be careful of the pressures as liquid nitrogen will freeze petrol solid.

FMIC first for me, if that still doesnt produce the results I will be fitting WM to mine. Its proven technology and unless im mistaken it was used on the earlier subaru rally cars ( or was it the mitsi evo's... getting old I forget)

The amount of water that you are injecting is tiny releative to the amount of air going through the system, on a wet day the relative humidity of the air will be higher than on a dry day with the water injecting. You are not filling the chambers with water, you are putting tiny amounts of water into the air stream, that water evaporates and cools the air ( water has very high specific heat capacity, so a little does a lot ) In the chamber the water continues to absorb some of the latent heat in the whole engine system. It doesnt increase power, it simply stops the loss of power due to over hot intake temps.

This article (http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf) was posted on a t5D5 thread when discussing Aquamist installs (http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/9143-aq...e__hl__ethanol). Page 8 onwards is the bit we would be interested in, especially the info on the different effects of methanol (methyl alcohol), ethanol (ethyl acohol) and IPA (iso-propyl alcohol). Also page 11 where they tried to "drown" an engine with extreme water injection. So, yes, WI / WMI is a well proven technology.

Methylated spirits / denatured alcohol should be suitable but the effect on various seals in the injection (pump, storage vessel, etc) should be checked out. Also, some methylated spirits also contain pyridine (iirc correctly such fluids are also dyed purple as pyridine is VERY nasty indeed to the human body and some polymers - "plastics and rubbers").

Liquid N2 will embrittle metals at -196degC. You would also have to have one heck of container / storage / transport system to keep that stuff. Wonder if I can pinch one of the Dewar flasks from work LOL.

Wegal: you're lucky mate, I nearly had your TWR FMIC mounted in my dieseasel but Tim has got me another one . Roll on next Friday . Once that's done and I save up a few more pennies I may develop a meth habit

[wegal]

LOL i might have been a bit cross if tim had sold it on as Id already paid for it !!!!

Not getting mine done till the 26th :-(

[nobananas]

The CO2 system I've seen doesn't actually flood the outside of the intercooler but has a custom built manifold with channels within, this then vents over the fuel rail.

[RT MECHANICS]

I run WI with two jets (Aquamist basic kit) it works very well but i run it purely for an extra safety measure , The Autronic ecu controls the jets it can even be set up to run each jet individually if needed it only cuts in once the intake temp gets to 45 degrees.

I have only ever run distilled water...

It works for me