Water injection

[Mr Sheen]

Anyone here running water injection? If so what kit you running, pro's/cons etc
I'm not running big boost on mine, but just looking for a reduction in inlet temps.

[p fandango]

think Cornclose has got it on his, i've got it on my shopping list lol

[woz]

Thought I would just "poke" this thread - I have a pile of bits - hoping to fit in next few weeks after fixing coolant leak.

Running a highish mileage 850 with a RICA 280. looking to protect engine by redunig inlet temps and misfires under prolomged boost.

Will repot back on porgess. Anyone else got anything they want to share??

Woz

[Alan M]

I run a Devils own kit and use a 0.5 jet. I run a 50/50 water/methanol mix. I have the entire kit in the boot including the pump. You will need to use some sort of non return valve in the system to stop the reservoir being auto syphoned because of its relative position to the jet. I also use a cylinder capable of withstanding alcohol for the fluid reservoir.

[woz]

Hi Alan,
Where have you found is the best source of methanol?
Cheers
Warwick

[t5_monkey]

Anyone here running water injection? If so what kit you running, pro's/cons etc
I'm not running big boost on mine, but just looking for a reduction in inlet temps.

is it really needed prior to getting into the darker side of tuning?

I would have thought with a standard remap and bolt ons it wouldn't really make that big a difference... compared to say a good FMIC upgrade?

[Wobbly Dave]

waste of time if you ask me. personally think the science is flawed. If you are that worried about IGT then get a bigger FMIC. last time I checked water was not combustible.

[T4_Al]

How can the science be flawed when water injection is a tried and tested technology having been used in aircraft and vehicles for over 70 years?

[volvolised]

waste of time if you ask me. personally think the science is flawed. If you are that worried about IGT then get a bigger FMIC. last time I checked water was not combustible.

I think the term dense can definately be used on this point, ive copied and pasted this so i dont type any typo's and yes on a personal note water injection is good, we've all noted how well a car goes on a cold misty morn, anyways here you go. In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

Water injection is also used in some turbine engines, when a momentary high-thrust setting is needed.


Many water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (approximately 50/50), with trace amounts of water-soluble oil. The water provides the primary cooling effect due to its great density and high heat absorption properties. The alcohol is combustible, and also serves as an antifreeze for the water. The purpose of the oil is to prevent corrosion of water injection and fuel system components. [1] Because the alcohol mixed into the injection solution is often methanol (CH3OH), the system is known as methanol-water injection, or MW50. In the United States, the system is commonly referred to as anti-detonant injection, or ADI.

[Volvostorm]

They were using it back in 1963, on the Oldsmobile Jetfire Turbo

http://www.oldride.com/library/1963_...e_jetfire.html

Even had a cool name
During turbo charging, Turbo- Rocket Fluid (C) is injected into the gas mixture to permit ultra-high compression for greatest efficiency. This turbo-charging action increases power by almost 40%.

[Wobbly Dave]

Even if it does lower IGT - the water vapour is not combustible and takes up space that could in well designed/tuned solution, be used for fuel & air. So you injecting to cool cylinders to lessen the risk of knock but the overall process is flawed. Surely injecting NOS would be better, if anything.

Aquamist won't say anything against it as they sell it.

I fail to see many examples used outside of the modding community e.g. F1 - that would give it any credance. But this is just my opinion.

I can think of many more better ways to spend your money.

[Tim Williams]

Even if it does lower IGT - the water vapour is not combustible and takes up space that could in well designed/tuned solution, be used for fuel & air. So you injecting to cool cylinders to lessen the risk of knock but the overall process is flawed. Surely injecting NOS would be better, if anything.

Aquamist won't say anything against it as they sell it.

I fail to see many examples used outside of the modding community e.g. F1 - that would give it any credance. But this is just my opinion.

I can think of many more better ways to spend your money.

Rather than digging even deeper if your not prepared to try it then do some reading up on it and you should be able to find some very useful info.

NOS is not free unlike water and are you sure you would want to inject NOS without doing anything else?

The water cools the air and cooler air is also more dense, the more dense the air the more oxygen it contains so you can get a bigger BANG.

[S70T5Chris]

waste of time if you ask me. personally think the science is flawed. If you are that worried about IGT then get a bigger FMIC. last time I checked water was not combustible.

I think you're flawed! You seem to have a lot to say about a lot of stuff you know nothing about !! lol!

[t5_monkey]

My late Grandpa worked on the developing the Merlin engines that went into spitfires (So he knew some stuff about that kinda thing!) although I was just a wee kid when he used to talk to me about engines so I'll try and surmise some of what he said along with conversations I've had about WI with clever people who understand it.

- It's a safety measure (like belt and braces) rather than a tuning end in itself
- You don't need it unless you're doing some serious tuning
- If you car won't run in a safe manner without it... it prob shouldn't be a daily drive because the WI is going to break down at some point in the future.

There's a fella with a modified 19T and WI on his V70 on here... it's proper quick, he got it custom mapped and says he can feel a difference in terms of the responsiveness but he's probably pushing nearly 400bhp.

But basically.... adding a lot of complexity, and only relevant unless you have a serious custom tune and are pushing lots of power - or planning on seriously caning your car on the track - and only worthwhile if you've done just about everything else to your car first.

Another point is.... the UK just isn't that hot (esp up north) and the hotter it gets... the more relevant WI is - maybe why it's a bit more popular in the USA.

Get everything else done (FMIC, downpipe, intake, internals, ported head, turbo... forged internals..) if you still want more get a custom tune with WI, strip it put coilovers in and buy another daily driver

[Tim Williams]

With most Volvo's raising the boost over 1 Bar will give air intake temperatures over 60c on one 4th gear pull with ambient temps of about 18c. As I posted earlier hotter air is less dense, if you have an ME7 or newer car then if you look at the air intake temps and ignition timing you will see the effects of higher than desired intake temps. If you don't have means to measure these then if you do repeated hard pulls in a higher gear you will feel the effects of the less dense air and retarded ignition timing as a reduction in power.

Monkey is wise in saying using it as a performance aid is not wise, if no safety precautions and monitoring is in place. Mapping without the water on and then driving with it will give more consistent performance in hot weather and reduce the risk of detonation that ultimately melts pistons.


PS, a 19T won't deliver 400BHP*.








* Unless in an Ebay advert.

[Wobbly Dave]

Rather than digging even deeper if your not prepared to try it then do some reading up on it and you should be able to find some very useful info.

NOS is not free unlike water and are you sure you would want to inject NOS without doing anything else?

The water cools the air and cooler air is also more dense, the more dense the air the more oxygen it contains so you can get a bigger BANG.

So it has less to do with tuning and more to do with costs? You may feel that my opinion is misguided - but I still think there are more viable alternatives to water injection.

By injecting water you are effectively slowing the burn of the combustive elements within the charge?? Surely that means that whilst the charge is cooled - it is also made less effective?

[Wobbly Dave]

I think you're flawed! You seem to have a lot to say about a lot of stuff you know nothing about !! lol!

Why do you always have to be so derisory. Have I said or done something to upset you??

[t5_monkey]

With most Volvo's raising the boost over 1 Bar will give air intake temperatures over 60c on one 4th gear pull with ambient temps of about 18c. As I posted earlier hotter air is less dense, if you have an ME7 or newer car then if you look at the air intake temps and ignition timing you will see the effects of higher than desired intake temps. If you don't have means to measure these then if you do repeated hard pulls in a higher gear you will feel the effects of the less dense air and retarded ignition timing as a reduction in power.

Monkey is wise in saying using it as a performance aid is not wise, if no safety precautions and monitoring is in place. Mapping without the water on and then driving with it will give more consistent performance in hot weather and reduce the risk of detonation that ultimately melts pistons.


PS, a 19T won't deliver 400BHP*.

* Unless in an Ebay advert.

lol... on Ebay it would be at least 500bhp - the particular turbo in question is a 19T significantly modified by Owen Developments so I don't know how much power it would produce... certainly more than a regular 19T one would think.

So it has less to do with tuning and more to do with costs? You may feel that my opinion is misguided - but I still think there are more viable alternatives to water injection.

By injecting water you are effectively slowing the burn of the combustive elements within the charge?? Surely that means that whilst the charge is cooled - it is also made less effective?

injecting water lowers intake temp and therefore increases density of the air fuel - meaning overall the lower the temp the better prior to combustion - also the heat of combustion will produce steam, which expands greatly within the cylinder and will have a positive effect on power output.

Consider also water has a high thermal capacity which means more heat will leave via the steam in the exhaust.

however its mainly just really a protection against detonation - esp at the sensible temperatures we operate here in the UK.

[jardon]

Morning,

my experience of methanol injection is positive - on an ME7 car with good knock control (a "failsafe") it's a no brainer.

A bigger FMIC will not provide the knock resistance of Water/Meth injection even if IATs fall - and will cost a lot more. You are not trying to burn the water - in the same way as you can't burn the excess fuel when your car richens up on boost. NOS, etc - far more risk of engine damage. This is why we want to suppress knock: http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/air-fuel-ratios.shtml

Dave you are right about what happens in cylinder - slower burn. BUT..Then you advance the ignition and make more oomph OR... make more boost and more oomph. It just raises your knock threshold so that more cylinder pressure can be safely employed (more torque). I wouldn't be as reckless in a car that had less effective knock control measures as a blocked jet/blown aquamist fuse is going to happen one day I suspect. Use a specific failsafe in that instance.

It is a band aid for stock intercoolers but less expensive than a front mount and in my case appears to make decent power (see my 60-100 times thread). Tuning with it more aggressively makes for significant gains on under-turboed applications like mine - ME7 being the saviour if I run the tank dry.

My WOT IATS have been <30C this summer with a 1mm jet and neat methanol (stock intercooler). Before fitting it (DIY and easy) I would see 60C+ when the ambient was in single figures.

Running water/meth in an engine does not necessarily guarantee more power if no effort is made to capitalise on it - it just allows you tune more agressively or recover the gains lost through high IATS/knock induced ignition retard.

Do it and tune for it - it's no different to tuning a car without. Just be aware of the need to failsafe it on older cars.

My kit is an Aquamist 1s (basic) from here: http://www.bigccracing.com/ It was £330 then but I think has gone up.

Pro's - as above.

Cons - methanol is toxic but just be very careful. You may need to experiment with jets and activation pressure before finding what works for you. Small jets for water and large ones for methanol in mine.

Visit the water injection forum for advice: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/

I buy methanol in 25litre drums from here: http://jennychem.com/store/cat1 They do volume discount and 200litre drums are cheap but big!

I disagree strongly with Dave and have seen the results for myself and others who have actually tried it.

PS: Never been dynoed - guessing 300-340bhp depending on the rollers and where the moon is.

[t5_monkey]

Morning,

my experience of methanol injection is positive - on an ME7 car with good knock control (a "failsafe") it's a no brainer.

Dave you are right about what happens in cylinder - slower burn. BUT..Then you advance the ignition and make more oomph OR... make more boost and more oomph. It just raises your knock threshold so that more cylinder pressure can be safely employed (more torque). I wouldn't be as reckless in a car that had less effective knock control measures as a blocked jet/blown aquamist fuse is going to happen one day I suspect. Use a specific failsafe in that instance.

It is a band aid for stock intercoolers but less expensive than a front mount and in my case appears to make decent power (see my 60-100 times thread). Tuning with it more aggressively makes for significant gains on under-turboed applications like mine - ME7 being the saviour if I run the tank dry.

My WOT IATS have been <30C this summer with a 1mm jet and neat methanol (stock intercooler). Before fitting it (DIY and easy) I would see 60C+ when the ambient was in single figures.

Running water/meth in an engine does not necessarily guarantee more power if no effort is made to capitalise on it - it just allows you tune more agressively or recover the gains lost through high IATS/knock induced ignition retard.

Do it and tune for it - it's no different to tuning a car without. Just be aware of the need to failsafe it on older cars.

PS: 401bhp easily.

speak of the devil