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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Wobbly View Post
    Sorry to spoil your fun but it's all irrelevant as (and said in my best growling voice) the next project is DECORATING THE BATHROOM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    We did - http://www.prideengines.com/ - I would not feel comfortable using someone who does the majority of his work on a driveway. I am sure you are super happy with him & DTP seems very pleased with his 2.4 conversion - but that is just not me.

    There is no point just sticking in some cheapy rods to run an extra 0.3 of a bar.

    If a job is worth doing then it is worth doing well. The shopping list from Pride to build a proper engine with proper rods (not the ebay specials), flowed head comes in at just over 8K - at which point it is still sitting on a bench. Just ask RT - I am sure he has had the same experience. Then a 1500 quid turbo (maybe need a new DP) - then map it.

    On an 11 year old C70 just to get a second off the 1/4 - nah it is just not worth it given that the car for 95% time is a road vehicle. I think about sitting on the other end of a 12-15K bill with my wife growling at me.

    Gonna take my money & buy something we can both enjoy - like a 400hp jacuzzi.
    I'm just trying to help Dave. I certainly agree that an 8000 bill for a new engine in a daily driver would be overkill.

    Are the Ebay rods causing a problem? I haven't come across that I must be honest. If so then then a branded set is still not expensive.

    A second off your quarter would make a significantly quicker car and 0.3 bar may well acheive that. It certainly doesn't cost 12-15k to get there - a stock engine with decent compression should suffice while you run a stock frame turbo ie: probably what you have now - check your compression before writing the engine off as knackered.

    As a point of principle and to offer my experience - it is short sighted to assume that a small garage provides an inferior standard of work relative to a more corporate outfit no matter what discipline we are talking about. I wouldn't blithely trust any supplier big or small.

    Try not to see advice and help as needling you about who works on the car. I've never met you but as a fellow forum member with a similar set up to me I think it's daft not to share information. Maybe I have misjudged the tone of your posts but thay seem a bit defensive - apologies if that's just me .
    2005 (163) V70 D5 SE Premium Pack 130k. 10" sub/Fli amp with Grom audio kit. Shark stage 1 with EGR delete and 320mm discs. Enjoying the comfort and (relative) economy.

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  4. #223
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    Running 1.4 bar on a stock engine is risky is it not? Frankie saw off a rod doing that at the last Avon Park - though to be certain I don't know how much boost he ran that day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Running 1.4 bar on a stock engine is risky is it not? Frankie saw off a rod doing that at the last Avon Park - though to be certain I don't know how much boost he ran that day.
    I'm using 20psi without a problem
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Running 1.4 bar on a stock engine is risky is it not? Frankie saw off a rod doing that at the last Avon Park - though to be certain I don't know how much boost he ran that day.
    Your car and Frankies are poles apart in terms of boost and knock control. I have a 1 bar actuator and peak boost of 1.4 bar. My R888's scrabble with a locked diff on dry tarmac. I'm not suggesting it can't be done but you would have to get things very wrong to bend a rod with a with your set up. It's the uncontrolled boost spikes that bend conrods with such turbos. Sympathetic mapping at low rpm will be fine in early and late T5's with a 19t - setting an MBC to 1.4 bar would be asking for trouble on a stock engine.

    As I posted earlier I ran 1.5 bar for a while and occasionally saw 1.55 bar but as it was ~4000 rpm there was no issue. A 19t is not efficient at that boost but it will churn out 1.4 bar all day long.
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  7. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Running 1.4 bar on a stock engine is risky is it not? Frankie saw off a rod doing that at the last Avon Park - though to be certain I don't know how much boost he ran that day.
    i have been running 1.4 bar for months including racing at avon, york and santa pod my engine was always smokey and is at 207000 miles so was never gonna last for ever but i will only be going up to 16-17psi when my other engine is fitted

  8. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by jardon View Post
    Your car and Frankies are poles apart in terms of boost and knock control. I have a 1 bar actuator and peak boost of 1.4 bar. My R888's scrabble with a locked diff on dry tarmac. I'm not suggesting it can't be done but you would have to get things very wrong to bend a rod with a with your set up. It's the uncontrolled boost spikes that bend conrods with such turbos. Sympathetic mapping at low rpm will be fine in early and late T5's with a 19t - setting an MBC to 1.4 bar would be asking for trouble on a stock engine.

    As I posted earlier I ran 1.5 bar for a while and occasionally saw 1.55 bar but as it was ~4000 rpm there was no issue. A 19t is not efficient at that boost but it will churn out 1.4 bar all day long.
    my car never had any boost spikes with the mbc but did with the remapped ecu alone and i never hit high boost until after 4000rpms

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore
    I'm using 20psi without a problem
    That is 1.37 bar - which is marginal to my mind. I guess I could tweak the actuator 1/2 a turn.
    Last edited by Wobbly Dave; Wednesday 10th August 2011 at 22:03.
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  10. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by jardon View Post
    Your car and Frankies are poles apart in terms of boost and knock control. I have a 1 bar actuator and peak boost of 1.4 bar. My R888's scrabble with a locked diff on dry tarmac. I'm not suggesting it can't be done but you would have to get things very wrong to bend a rod with a with your set up. It's the uncontrolled boost spikes that bend conrods with such turbos. Sympathetic mapping at low rpm will be fine in early and late T5's with a 19t - setting an MBC to 1.4 bar would be asking for trouble on a stock engine.

    As I posted earlier I ran 1.5 bar for a while and occasionally saw 1.55 bar but as it was ~4000 rpm there was no issue. A 19t is not efficient at that boost but it will churn out 1.4 bar all day long.
    Forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by a 1 bar actuator. The actuator reacts on a 3 - 5 psi control signal from the BCS - a down tuned version of the actual boost pressure. If you have a 1 bar actuator then the wastegate would never open right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    That is 1.37 bar - which is marginal to my mind. I guess I could tweak the actuator 1/2 a turn.
    lol, if you want to be that accurate, I am actually running 21 to 22psi which is more like 1.5bar the engine is also on 220k
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    I will check my compression & look at 1/2 a turn on the waste gate.
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    In the absence of a bcs the turbo would only boost to the spring rating of the actuator. Adding a bcs allows the ecu to bleed off boost into the intake and 'hides' the boost from your actuator. At ecu determined levels of boost the bcs allows boost to the actuator and opens the wastegate. So in simple terms if the ecu has 1.4 bar as a peak then the bcs will only allow the actuator to open at that point. Running a higher actuator pre-tension or stronger spring will mean the ecu has less safety margin because the minmum level of boost is higher - the maximum is unchanged if the spring pressure is less than the programmed maximum. So my bcs will only be able to control boost when it is above 1 bar (not true as I lose 0.1 bar in the intercooler). Adding half a turn will make the car boost more aggressively as the minimum boost is increased - it will not increase peak boost because your ecu will still limit boost to whatever is mapped (unless your actuator is really weak and allowing the wastegate to blow open as flow gets higher).
    Last edited by jardon; Wednesday 10th August 2011 at 22:50.
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  15. #233
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    Sorry I always believed that the BCS - actuator relationship was a scaled down version of true boost pressure.

    Standard setup is 3 to 5 psi depending on the age of the diaphragm. I dont remember if that is plus or minus. At that point the wastegate is shut. As boost increases from the induction system the ECU reads it & then uses a scale down version of the boost pressure to open it. I didn't think (I may be wrong) that it was using a 1 to 1 relationship.

    E.g. if the map says open at 1.2 bar then it uses only a few psi to operate the actuator.

    However I could be entirely incorrect in this understanding.
    Last edited by Wobbly Dave; Wednesday 10th August 2011 at 23:07.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by a 1 bar actuator. The actuator reacts on a 3 - 5 psi control signal from the BCS - a down tuned version of the actual boost pressure. If you have a 1 bar actuator then the wastegate would never open right?
    Try to think of your bcs differently. At 0% duty it allows the compressor housing to communicate directly with the actuator and boost is limited to actuator pressure. At 100% duty the bcs prevents the compressor housing communicating with the actuator and boost will rise until the duty cycle drops or the wastegate blows open. The 3-5 psi figure you refer to is the stock actuator pre-tension from volvo ie: when the turbo is spooling boost cannot be less than 3-5 psi at WOT. So there is no 3-5 psi signal from the bcs just differing levels of communication between the conpressor and actuator depending on the activity of the bcs 'gate'.
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    Sorry i should have said pre-tension. But if you set the pre-tension to 1bar - then don't you run the risk of running a lot of boost low down with no hope of controlling it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Sorry I always believed that the BCS - actuator relationship was a scaled down version of true boost pressure.

    Standard setup is 3 to 5 psi depending on the age of the diaphragm. I dont remember if that is plus or minus. At that point the wastegate is shut. As boost increases from the induction system the ECU reads it & then uses a scale down version of the boost pressure to open it. I didn't think (I may be wrong) that it was using a 1 to 1 relationship.

    E.g. if the map says open at 1.2 bar then it uses only a few psi to operate the actuator.

    However I could be entirely incorrect in this understanding.
    If you attach a pump to your actuator nipple and start inflating it will open at 4.3 psi if exactly set to what Volvo state. So once you 4.3 psi of boost in the compressor housing the wastegate starts to open - unless the bcs stops the compressor talking to the actuator. If you added a few turns (I added 3 full turns to mine but it was still blowing open due to being knackered) then you would need to inflate at the actuator nipple a bit more to overcome the increased spring pre-tension - say 8 psi for example. Now the bcs may try to limit boost to 4.3 psi at a particular throttle opening/load point but it can't - which may be bad but in reality the car just feels more aggressive and responds more to small pedal inputs. Once compressor pressure reaches 8 psi the wastegate will open - it is not limited to a 3-5 psi input. My actuator stays closed until the pump reaches 14 psi but it is a Forge part not a fettled volvo item. With an 8 psi forge spring the wastegate was blowing open - unexpected but I suspect the Forge diapragm responds differently to pressure hence the need for a stronger spring (my estimation of what is happening). You would assume this makes the car edgy with light pedal inputs but Marco has (at my nagging) altered the pedal to etm relationship such that pedal response is quite linear. I have to be aware that my ecu cannot reduce boost below ~ 12 psi and this does reduce the margin of safety. The turbo is not efficient enough at low rpm to make 1 bar so no issue there (no bent rods). There is a greater potential for problems at the other end of the rpm range - if my fuel pump fails and I run lean then the ecu has reduced ability to cut boost and stop detonation (but the ecu can close the etm so not terribly risky). My Walbro has failed so I'm currently running a new stock fuel pump again and indeed it did run lean above 5000 rpm at WOT. I have temporarily unplugged the bcs so the boost never rises above ~12 psi until I fit another Walbro or something else I have my eye on. It does not appear to be an issue on hard track or road and I have run 1.4 bar for 30000 miles with little mechanical sympathy. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by jardon; Thursday 11th August 2011 at 00:21.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Sorry i should have said pre-tension. But if you set the pre-tension to 1bar - then don't you run the risk of running a lot of boost low down with no hope of controlling it?
    It certainly wouldn't do to run a 2 bar spring but a 1 bar spring only allows manifold pressure to reach ~12 psi. There is some pressure loss between the compressor and manifold due to restrictions and bends in the intercooler etc. 12 psi is not enough to cause a low rpm issue with a 19t - it is not really spooling hard until 3000 rpm and at that point most ME7 maps are running 18 psi anyway - all my stage 1's (autologic, rica and mte) were running 1.2 bar by 3000 rpm and into positive boost from. 2000 rpm.
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    Jardon my pre tension i set at 7psi on my 19t and my base boost setting is 14psi that is only on the wastegate spring, but the car is actually mapped for 17psi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by siamblue View Post
    Jardon my pre tension i set at 7psi on my 19t and my base boost setting is 14psi that is only on the wastegate spring, but the car is actually mapped for 17psi.
    Gary.
    Hi Gary. Unless we are talking about different things pre-tension and base boost are the same thing ie: if your actuator starts to open at 7 psi (its pre-tension) then minimum (base) boost at WOT is 7 psi. The bcs is what the ecu uses via it's remap to allow 17 psi. Not sure how 14psi fits into the picture (but it is late!).
    Last edited by jardon; Thursday 11th August 2011 at 00:42.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wobbly Dave View Post
    Sorry i should have said pre-tension. But if you set the pre-tension to 1bar - then don't you run the risk of running a lot of boost low down with no hope of controlling it?
    That's right Dave. But Forge do make exceedingly shiny actuators.


 

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