live mapping my T5

[MrMopp]

Cragmaz can you find out if they can do our jag XJ12 for us

[bonelorry]

Fair point buddy, but i have been "burnt" before with high boost and big torque , resulting in bent rods and a new engine, so i am well pleased with the results i have, and knowing that its safe and well within the limits of the engine.

Craig

i know what happened, i nearly bought your car myself before you did!

as i said its your car and aslong as your happy thats the main thing, i just want to make sure your getting your moneys worth from the car and the mods its got!

regards simon

[cragmaz]

2 questions, if I may?

Firstly, how does this machine "calculate" the losses in the transmission? As far as I'm aware (unless someone knows otherwise), the only way to get an accurate flywheel figure is to remove the engine from the car and run it on a bench dyno.

Secondly, the calibration process, what was it calibrated against? There is no body responsible for calibrating these machines, there is no certification system in place for their accuracy. As you said "mad German scientists" I assume that the calibration was carried out by Maha themselves with no external form of verification?

And before anyone starts with the "this machine is better than there machine" antics, trying to compare dyno figures from one machine to another is a pointless exercise. The best use for a dyno IMO is obtaining an AFR/Boost plot and for comparison runs on the same car before and after modifications.

Fair point mate.

No offence but i have had this debate about dyno`s, many,many times before, and more often than not, it ends up with people getting cross and irate, so i hope you dont mind if i dont want to open up the dyno "can of worms"
All i know is that this machine was the best on the market to suit us, and is as accurate as a dyno can possibly be.
Oh and finally, i have heard a rumour that on some other makes of machine, you can manipulate it to produce bigger figures, on ours, you certainly cant.

we love it anyway!!!!

Regards
Craig

[cragmaz]

Cragmaz can you find out if they can do our jag XJ12 for us

will do, cant see it being a problem, will let you know.

Craig

[cragmaz]

finally got the dyno graph attatched!!!

craig

[S70T5Chris]

hmmm... Your graph is almost identical to FFM's!!! And I slated that yesterday (not sure if you read it!)!! I'm a bit confused!

I don't wanna p!ss on anyone's bonfire, just giving my opinion. I'm not impressed with that result TBH mate. FFM got the exact same result and hasn't even had a remap?! It's got no low down power/torque, it can't be that responsive to drive?

And why oh why does noone have a plot to see what the fueling is doing!?! Do you now what the afr's are?

[cragmaz]

hmmm... Your graph is almost identical to FFM's!!! And I slated that yesterday (not sure if you read it!)!! I'm a bit confused!

I don't wanna p!ss on anyone's bonfire, just giving my opinion. I'm not impressed with that result TBH mate. FFM got the exact same result and hasn't even had a remap?! It's got no low down power/torque, it can't be that responsive to drive?

And why oh why does noone have a plot to see what the fueling is doing!?! Do you now what the afr's are?

1. who or what is ffm??

2. i do have another graph, that shows afr`s and boost as well, but its a physical piece of paper that i dont have a digital copy of, so i have no way of putting it on here at the mo, as i dont have a bluetooth dongle.

3. afr`s are bang on, nice and even with no lean off at the upper limits.

4. its very responsive, and goes like f**k, i have had more maps on this car than i care to remember, and this current one is the dogs, when i bought the car it was running a rica/chiptuning map, that i had a dyno print out of @ 290bhp, with 280 torque, but that was at 19psi peak, but in reality it boosted to 25psi and blew my bottom end our, resulting in a new engine.

5. if your nearby (cant remember where you are) or anyone local in fact, i will happily take you out for a blast and see for yourself, i have a mate with a 330bhp evo4 and he cant shake me off, i cant take him, but he cant get rid of me!!!

and finally, chris, who mapped my car and owns the dyno (my brother in law) has been mapping and old skool chiptuning for over 8 years and writes all his own files, and has remapped 1,000`s of cars,and with all due respect, if you dont have adequate experience of doing this, then really, who are you to critisise his work!, i dont want to come accross as being funny, but i am just defending his work, as lots of people are quick off the mark to take turns in slating a good, honest proffessional service/ guy.


or maybe i should just shut up and sink into the background, and not advise on my own experiences for the benefit of other people, only trying to help after all, but if my help int appreciated then so be it!

Craig

[MrMopp]

I have 1 question and 1 Question only

Are you (the owner) happy with the way it performs,the power delivery and the overall driveability of the car if so then to be fair who gives a **** ?

Ultimately if you choose to go down the conventional custom maps route to utilise the mods you have then your perfectly placed to do so in the future.

Your car your choice

[S70T5Chris]

1. who or what is ffm??

2. i do have another graph, that shows afr`s and boost as well, but its a physical piece of paper that i dont have a digital copy of, so i have no way of putting it on here at the mo, as i dont have a bluetooth dongle.

3. afr`s are bang on, nice and even with no lean off at the upper limits.

4. its very responsive, and goes like f**k, i have had more maps on this car than i care to remember, and this current one is the dogs, when i bought the car it was running a rica/hlm map, that i had a dyno print out of @ 290bhp, with 280 torque, but that was at 19psi peak, but in reality it boosted to 25psi and blew my bottom end our, resulting in a new engine.

5. if your nearby (cant remember where you are) or anyone local in fact, i will happily take you out for a blast and see for yourself, i have a mate with a 330bhp evo4 and he cant shake me off, i cant take him, but he cant get rid of me!!!

and finally, chris, who mapped my car and owns the dyno (my brother in law) has been mapping and old skool chiptuning for over 8 years and writes all his own files, and has remapped 1,000`s of cars,and with all due respect, if you dont have adequate experience of doing this, then really, who are you to critisise his work!, i dont want to come accross as being funny, but i am just defending his work, as lots of people are quick off the mark to take turns in slating a good, honest proffessional service/ guy.


or maybe i should just shut up and sink into the background, and not advise on my own experiences for the benefit of other people, only trying to help after all, but if my help int appreciated then so be it!

Craig

ok now you've just lit a £££££££g fire under my ass - do your £££££££g research.

Read this CLICK

It wasn't my intention to upset you, sorry if I'm not impressed with your dyno graph. Tough £££££. You've got the exact same result as a guy who hasn't even had a remap and with far less mods.

So what afr's are you running????

[S70T5Chris]

I have 1 question and 1 Question only

Are you (the owner) happy with the way it performs,the power delivery and the overall driveability of the car if so then to be fair who gives a **** ?

Ultimately if you choose to go down the conventional custom maps route to utilise the mods you have then your perfectly placed to do so in the future.

Your car your choice

Look, I couldn't give a fly!n £££££ what people want to do with their cars. And if people are happy with their cars, great.

Just because I give my opinion, doesn't mean everyone needs to get the arse on?! Call my car a piece of £££££, I couldn't give a monkeys.

[MrMopp]

Look, I couldn't give a fly!n £££££ what people want to do with their cars. And if people are happy with their cars, great.

Just because I give my opinion, doesn't mean everyone needs to get the arse on?! Call my car a piece of £££££, I couldn't give a monkeys.

Actually its quite nice lol gis a go

[cragmaz]

ok now you've just lit a £££££££g fire under my ass - do your £££££££g research.

Read this CLICK

It wasn't my intention to upset you, sorry if I'm not impressed with your dyno graph. Tough £££££. You've got the exact same result as a guy who hasn't even had a remap and with far less mods.

So what afr's are you running????

`Kin ell mate, another Chiptuning casualty!!!!, when my engine blew, i purchased a 2nd ecu to use and we anylized the rica/chiptuning ecu, when we read it, the results were frightening, far far too much boost with no overboost limit, no ignition retard, and far too lean, especially over 5500 rpm, where the boost spiked to 1.4 bar!!!!!, and the afr`s totally leaned off, i got a bent rod, for these efforts!!!

bought a 3in 1 printer thios aft, so scanned my other graph in.

still a work in progress tho, so bear that in mind!!!

[BruceT]

Is that going really rich at the end? I can never remember which is lean and rich lol.

AFR's look up and down though

[S70T5Chris]

Ok here's a graph of my car (16t) Click

Here's a graph of Warrens car (19t) Click

Yeah, yeah I know there isn't an afr plot! They didn't put it on the bloody graph! But the afr's on both our cars are running mid to low 11's right through the rev range. Both our cars have been mapped by Marco of MTE. And both our cars have an wideband AFR gauge so that the fueling can be monitored at all times.

Just compare where our torque and power levels come in and how long they are sustained for.

Craig, i'm sorry mate but you're fueling is not bang on, nowhere near. Your running very lean at the top end, well into the 13's. I'd get that looked at.

[ChrisAngus]

Ok here's a graph of my car (16t) Click

Here's a graph of Warrens car (19t) Click

Yeah, yeah I know there isn't an afr plot! They didn't put it on the bloody graph! But the afr's on both our cars are running mid to low 11's right through the rev range. Both our cars have been mapped by Marco of MTE. And both our cars have an wideband AFR gauge so that the fueling can be monitored at all times.

Just compare where our torque and power levels come in and how long they are sustained for.

Craig, i'm sorry mate but you're fueling is not bang on, nowhere near. Your running very lean at the top end, well into the 13's. I'd get that looked at.

Well I have a few things to add, I don't want to get into a slagging match over it either, so this will be my first and final post on this.

1, max power is at low 12 afr's, any richer and it slows the burn, same affect as retarding the timing, more advance is then needed to compensate, result is just a waste of fuel and nothing to show for it, a lot of tuners go richer to add that bit more of a safety margin, some believe it cools combustion, in reality it just slows the burn.

2, your dyno run was done in november so was a lot cooler, cooler air, bigger bang, will be interesting to see how Craigs does when it's freezing cold, we could do to see the bottom of your graph, did you you crop it for a reason .

3, Craig wanted to keep the boost lower, he had only had the car a week before it blew, no more than 1 bar was agreed.

4, and this is the biggy, why is yours losing 110hp through the transmission, if you look at yours and Craigs graph, the wheel power are almost identical and his only loses 57 and that reached a further 1000rpm. If I didn't know better I would say your run was manipulated, infact, i would put money on it, your transmission losses are nearly double, either you have a problem with binding brakes or the dyno operator is handy with his braking foot and funny why the afr plot was left off, something to hide perhaps??

So yes, your graph shows you have a bit more torque but the wheel power figures are pretty much identical.

All in all i'm happy with Craigs graph, a nice pull all the way to redline with no excessive boost, good power, nice level torque curve throughout the entire rev range, safe and still economical to drive, just what he wanted, don't forget this was tailored to suit, NOT for max power.

5, nearly forgot the most important, a VERY happy customer, don't forget, it all comes down to the way it feels on the road.

Happy motoring all

[Alan M]

Craigs looks like a fairly good result from 1 bar of boost but why does the AFR plot show a value of just over 13 at 6k rpm? Isn't that running a little lean at that high an rpm at full boost? Or am I looking at the plot wrong? I was looking at the second attachment.

[Alan M]

I just realised Chris has pointed out what I have saw on the graphs yesterday about the AFR plot.

[ChrisAngus]

Craigs looks like a fairly good result from 1 bar of boost but why does the AFR plot show a value of just over 13 at 6k rpm? Isn't that running a little lean at that high an rpm at full boost? Or am I looking at the plot wrong? I was looking at the second attachment.

You could say it's a pinch too high, but still within safe limits, it was done this way just to keep the power going that little bit longer up to redline, and no signs of det. When the winter comes round again and it's nice and cool we will tweak this. Every car is different and lots of variables come in to play to get the perfect afr's, so not always a software issue.
I'm sure craig doesn't want to keep throwing money at this car, so I think we should just let him enjoy it for now.

[S70T5Chris]

Well I have a few things to add, I don't want to get into a slagging match over it either, so this will be my first and final post on this.

1, max power is at low 12 afr's, any richer and it slows the burn, same affect as retarding the timing, more advance is then needed to compensate, result is just a waste of fuel and nothing to show for it, a lot of tuners go richer to add that bit more of a safety margin, some believe it cools combustion, in reality it just slows the burn.

2, your dyno run was done in november so was a lot cooler, cooler air, bigger bang, will be interesting to see how Craigs does when it's freezing cold, we could do to see the bottom of your graph, did you you crop it for a reason .

3, Craig wanted to keep the boost lower, he had only had the car a week before it blew, no more than 1 bar was agreed.

4, and this is the biggy, why is yours losing 110hp through the transmission, if you look at yours and Craigs graph, the wheel power are almost identical and his only loses 57 and that reached a further 1000rpm. If I didn't know better I would say your run was manipulated, infact, i would put money on it, your transmission losses are nearly double, either you have a problem with binding brakes or the dyno operator is handy with his braking foot and funny why the afr plot was left off, something to hide perhaps??

So yes, your graph shows you have a bit more torque but the wheel power figures are pretty much identical.

All in all i'm happy with Craigs graph, a nice pull all the way to redline with no excessive boost, good power, nice level torque curve throughout the entire rev range, safe and still economical to drive, just what he wanted, don't forget this was tailored to suit, NOT for max power.

5, nearly forgot the most important, a VERY happy customer, don't forget, it all comes down to the way it feels on the road.

Happy motoring all

I too am not interested in a slagging match, this car/map is better than the other. I'm simply giving my opinion. You're entitled to defend yourselves, and counter what I said, no problem. As I have said if Craig and you (i'm assuming you mapped the car?) are happy then great, i'm pleased for you.

Also as I said, if anyone wants to rip my car/map to shreds thats fine! I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, I know i'm happy. And thats the way you feel I guess! So everyone's happy, yay!

Whether you respond or not, I don't really care, but I will reply to your comments anyway.

1, Thank you for telling me what I already know. I'm fully aware that max power is at low 12's. But are you aware that running afrs much higher than that, and your in melted pistons territory? Craig's car is hitting 13's around 3000rpm when boost peaks, and also at 6000rpm when the boost peaks again. In my eyes that seem dangerous, am I wrong?

2, Yes It was done in november, it was cooler I agree. Gonna make that much difference? maybe? I'm not hiding anything LOL! Here's another link Click Like I said pick it shreds, thats fine.

3, I totally understand. My car melted a piston at the hands of the same guy. Hence why i'm paranoid about fueling!

4, I can't comment on the transmission losses? I don't know? It's not anything I know about. Not in a million years was it manipulated. Hang on a minute, it's the same dyno as yours. The world best dyno? that can't be manipulated? The afr plot isn't on there because it wasn't an option to have it. The guy who did the run just had a hand held device giving him the lambda readouts. Again nothing to hide in the slightest. And as I said before, my car is fitted with a wideband afr gauge so I can see what the afr's are doing anyway. Take my word for it or don't, I don't care.

A bit more torque? Thats a slight understatement. Craigs car isn't running much more torque than standard.

I'm glad you're happy with Craig's graph, as i've aready said. Safe to drive? That's a matter of opinion. The boost and fueling seem to be a little all over the place for my liking.

I be willing to bet that you alter the fueling now, after this thread. I wouldn't want to drive that car hard consistantly, running those afr's.

5, How it feels on the road is exactly what its all about, I couldn't agree more. You can't get that sense from looking at a dyno graph, but you can have an educated guess by looking at when the power and torque comes in and tails off.

We are comparing my car to craig's, bare in mind that i'm using the massively inferior 16t turbo, and Craig is using the worlds best turbo, a 19t. And also bare in mind that there is another guy on this forum, with a 19t accompanied by less mods than you, who achieved the exact same results, almost identical graph, without a remap! Are you really that happy with the map?

[cragmaz]

I too am not interested in a slagging match, this car/map is better than the other. I'm simply giving my opinion. You're entitled to defend yourselves, and counter what I said, no problem. As I have said if Craig and you (i'm assuming you mapped the car?) are happy then great, i'm pleased for you.

Also as I said, if anyone wants to rip my car/map to shreds thats fine! I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, I know i'm happy. And thats the way you feel I guess! So everyone's happy, yay!

Whether you respond or not, I don't really care, but I will reply to your comments anyway.

1, Thank you for telling me what I already know. I'm fully aware that max power is at low 12's. But are you aware that running afrs much higher than that, and your in melted pistons territory? Craig's car is hitting 13's around 3000rpm when boost peaks, and also at 6000rpm when the boost peaks again. In my eyes that seem dangerous, am I wrong?

2, Yes It was done in november, it was cooler I agree. Gonna make that much difference? maybe? I'm not hiding anything LOL! Here's another link Click Like I said pick it shreds, thats fine.

3, I totally understand. My car melted a piston at the hands of the same guy. Hence why i'm paranoid about fueling!

4, I can't comment on the transmission losses? I don't know? It's not anything I know about. Not in a million years was it manipulated. Hang on a minute, it's the same dyno as yours. The world best dyno? that can't be manipulated? The afr plot isn't on there because it wasn't an option to have it. The guy who did the run just had a hand held device giving him the lambda readouts. Again nothing to hide in the slightest. And as I said before, my car is fitted with a wideband afr gauge so I can see what the afr's are doing anyway. Take my word for it or don't, I don't care.

A bit more torque? Thats a slight understatement. Craigs car isn't running much more torque than standard.

I'm glad you're happy with Craig's graph, as i've aready said. Safe to drive? That's a matter of opinion. The boost and fueling seem to be a little all over the place for my liking.

I be willing to bet that you alter the fueling now, after this thread. I wouldn't want to drive that car hard consistantly, running those afr's.

5, How it feels on the road is exactly what its all about, I couldn't agree more. You can't get that sense from looking at a dyno graph, but you can have an educated guess by looking at when the power and torque comes in and tails off.

We are comparing my car to craig's, bare in mind that i'm using the massively inferior 16t turbo, and Craig is using the worlds best turbo, a 19t. And also bare in mind that there is another guy on this forum, with a 19t accompanied by less mods than you, who achieved the exact same results, almost identical graph, without a remap! Are you really that happy with the map?

HMMMMMM, food for thought, anyways, lets not let this get out of hand, i dont wanna fall out with, or upset anyone, thats not what we are about is it?

I will def be keeping a close eye on my boost guage and how the car runs, just for the record, i have been running a std. ecu on this car since i put the new lump in back in december, and it was dyno tested at 260bhp, so i am more than happy with the current increase/map, in fact i love it!!!!, and thats that.

Many thanks for all your comments, weather they have been good or not, and i hope we all have no hard feelings!

Craig