Which Remap?

[Justin]

If you are all serious about doing this then it needs to be as accurate as possible. Here are some main points to consider.

What are the objectives of the tests? If its performance at full throttle then the dyno will do the job, what it wont show is part throttle performance and real worl driving scenarios like town, country, motorway etc, it also wont show fuel economy, these are significant factors that differ between remaps.

I keep hearing the word "better", define it! Is it the peak figure, area under the curve, fuelling. Also define "safer" From what I've read marco like to run his cars rich at 11:1, where as others like the owner of wothrline say that 13:1 is ideal, what about Hieco, BSR, Rica, and who is correct? Who's definition is going to be used as safe, and why? Deciding by forum consensus is not good enough. Especially as none of us on here know precisely what the tuners criteria are.

What other measurements are going to be looked at, if you want to see how "safe" a map is you also need to measure EGT, and not calculated, but by using an actual EGT probe. AFR alone as a measurement of engine safety is no use as it doesnt take into account EGT, Intake temps or ignition timing. Surely too all of these factors will be affected by heatsoak for example, which is going to be an issue on any dyno.

Incorrectly setup and loaded dyno's will give inaccurate results, FACT, so where are you taking the car?

Environmental issues will also affect the results too, the first cold run of the day will be better than midday when the air tempreature outside has raised by say 6°C. You would in that case need a climate controlled workshop to be 100% fair.

In order to eliminate any bias or interference, the selected maps must not be labelled rica bsr etc, but map A, map B etc, and they should be run in no sequential order to allow variables like heatsoak, they should also be allowed to cool between runs, this is going to take a considerable amount of dyno time.

To allow for adaption, the car should be dyno'ed, then driven for 30+ miles of varying styles then re dyno'ed.

Which maps are you testing, HLM use oscarli and autologic, then there is Rica MTE BSR and Hieco. Thats 6 maps to purchase and run for hours on a dyno. And it gets worse....What about the differnt ECU's? 4.3, 4.4, ME7, ME9, Denso, and thats without the diesel cars. What about initial cost, diagnostics, after sales support, this is a huge undertaking lads if your going to do it right

[wegal]

To do it properly Justin is simply not possible, we do not have available to us the testing facilitys of a large organisation, therefore all we can do is offer up an example of what the differences are on one car. Those differences will not be the same on all cars but should be a reasonable representation of what the maps do.

Safe - rich is safe... however rich buggers the MPG.

For me all I think we will get is a set of graphs that will show how the power is fed in on WOT this is the most dangerous time for an engine. It will show how the boost comes in and when and what level of fueling you achieve. It will provide a final power increase over standard. We will then have a set of graphs that people can compare and argue about till they are blue in the face, but there will at least be a sample of what the different maps do to any one car. Which is a base line test that is all we can achieve.

To really do this properly requires the engine out and on a engine dyno in a controlled environment, this is clearly well beyond the means of ordinary folks like us.

What do we hope to achieve.... a set of graphs taken from one car on one dyno on one day. That is the fairest comparison we could make without investing 20 to 30 grand in this test.

For the real petrol heads it will no doubt be a waste of time and the experiment will have holes picked in it for fun, but for the layman, it will give an indication of what sort of power increases to expect, that is as much as we can hope to achieve. A grand to run that test is probably worth it. If I win the lottery then we can have real fun and do a complete test on every engine varient and every map varient. However thats not possible, so surely its better to have some information, even if it is possibly flawed than no information surrounded by speculation and opinion.

The maps will give an indication of how the car will drive once remapped, the torque graph will show how aggressive the power release is and how smooth it is. The AFR will show if the engine is running a bit lean, which will be fine for road use but might be a problem on a track day, where the engine is being pushed to the limits for long periods, iginition timing is pretty irrelevent as the engine safety systems control this.

As I have said its just gives a base line indication of what might happen if you pick one map or the other, its not going to be definative.

[Justin]

Wegal, Ignition timing is hugely relevant, its affects the EGT, Its not just controlled by the safety systems, its part of the map process of optimisation. Ignoring these would make the comparison worthless, even for the layman.

Also worth noting on the rich and lean side is has the map been optimised for performance or economy, see the rica maps are a bit of both, not sure re MTE and others though???

And flawed results being better than none is just daft mate, whats the point.......oh and if your spending a grand your only going to be able to test one map and have enough to pay for the dyno...........

[wegal]

Further to this.....

Hamish has called me and seeing as this has remained an intelligent discussion he has offered one of his maps on my car FOC. He has also offered his dyno and his time installing the maps etc etc. Hamish has stated to me that he doesnt really care who's is best but he like most people would be interested in seeing what if any difference there is between the maps.

So personal opinions aside, I think that Hamish should be applauded as the first tuner to step up to the mark and offer real and genuine assistance on this little test.

He is obviously concerned that should this go ahead at his garage that he doesnt have a hostile crowd gathered whilst he is offering his services to try and conduct the most useful and impartial test we can within the very limited parameters that we are going to be able to assess.

No matter what your views of HLM I feel that Hamish has just made a very generous and genuine offer of help.

Justin.... I know that this test may seem a bit pointless but its not. It WILL show the main differences between the maps at WOT. That is all we can test. Drivability is not measurable, thats purely opinion based, what suits you may not suit me. It will only show this test on one car and one engine with one control system, but it WILL show the differences on one car which may translate to others to a greater or lesser degree. Maybe for my own interest it would show which map produces the most power on my car. Maybe a waste of time maybe not, but one tuner IS interested in the results so it cant be a total waste of time and effort.

[Justin]

Hey dont mind me, but someone has to throw a spanner I would say this is one of the most informative and open discussions that has ever covered these subjects, roll on

[Alan M]

When is the test going to take place? Are spectators permitted to come along and watch?

[S70T5Chris]

When is the test going to take place? Are spectators permitted to come along and watch?

Nothing, AFAIK, has been set in stone or properly organised as yet. But the ideas are flying a round, and I think if things keep going the way they are, this experiment would be a definate posibility.

[S70T5Chris]

Further to this.....

Hamish has called me and seeing as this has remained an intelligent discussion he has offered one of his maps on my car FOC. He has also offered his dyno and his time installing the maps etc etc. Hamish has stated to me that he doesnt really care who's is best but he like most people would be interested in seeing what if any difference there is between the maps.

So personal opinions aside, I think that Hamish should be applauded as the first tuner to step up to the mark and offer real and genuine assistance on this little test.

He is obviously concerned that should this go ahead at his garage that he doesnt have a hostile crowd gathered whilst he is offering his services to try and conduct the most useful and impartial test we can within the very limited parameters that we are going to be able to assess.

No matter what your views of HLM I feel that Hamish has just made a very generous and genuine offer of help.

Justin.... I know that this test may seem a bit pointless but its not. It WILL show the main differences between the maps at WOT. That is all we can test. Drivability is not measurable, thats purely opinion based, what suits you may not suit me. It will only show this test on one car and one engine with one control system, but it WILL show the differences on one car which may translate to others to a greater or lesser degree. Maybe for my own interest it would show which map produces the most power on my car. Maybe a waste of time maybe not, but one tuner IS interested in the results so it cant be a total waste of time and effort.

Personal feelings aside....

The fact that Hamish has offered one of his maps FOC, and offered the use of his time and dyno for the test is very generous indeed. I can't deny that.

After thinking about it, I have one main concern (got absolutely nothing to do with my feelings or previous dealings with Hamish), that using Hamish's dyno will not be impartial and will always cause a lot of reason for people to dispute the findings. Just a thought.

[Alan M]

Can't a standard run be done then compare the maps to that for comparison? Would that not be a fair test?

[Yosser]

using Hamish's dyno will not be impartial

I'm not baiting here (honest ), but can you explain how that is so?

Surely no matter how innacurate the measuring machine is or is not, all measurements are made by the same machine and are therefore valid in relation to each other.

Or am I missing something?

[Wombatbomb]

Or am I missing something?

Operator error

[Yosser]

Operator error

Ok then, have the ECU's held by someone other than the operator in order that the operator is unaware what the car is running at any given time.

[wegal]

Im going to be very very clear here. Hamish rang me. Hamish was interested in the results. He was not and he was very clear about this interested in making his software look better than anyones else's. Hamish's view was that remapping petrols is a very small aspect of his business, and that his sole interest was in the differences that the different maps made. Hamish was very clear that this was by no means a definative test and that he wanted to do this fair and square, no messing no tweaking no bull££££.

I have watched hamish run his dyno, and he does know what he is doing. The dyno jet is also not an easy machine to fool. He is offering to not just mesure the parameters that we have discussed but EVERY parameter that the Dynojet can record, the list is exhaustive. If he was looking to "fiddle" it then there is no way he would be prepared to do this. I had a long chat with Hamish and he was very clear that he would want this to be a real test done properly. He also did not insist that we use his dyno for his map. He simply made a very very generous offer.

Please please please do NOT bismirch Hamishs generosity on this matter I dont care what you may think of him, it does not detract from what he has offered here. Lets be very clear.... this could take 10 hours or more to do properly. Thats over £1000 worth of dyno time alone, not to mention the map at £300 ish. It would be stupid at this stage to in anyway imply that hamish is trying to get one over. He is not. Bearing in mind that I am running a MTE map I have nothing to gain here. I am truely impartial. I am sure that it would be possible to have impartial overseers on this project. In fact I would insist on it to prevent the Oh he did this or that bull.

So before gobbing off please take a minute to ask... would you be prepared to put up £1300 of your money to make this happen, because that is what Hamish has offered us. If your not able to see that through your own prejudice then please dont scupper his for the rest of us.

Hamish has offered to do this as methodically and scientifically as is possible. He has a real and genuine curiosity about the result. You will notice he has not posted on this thread, this is because he is aware of some anti HLM feelings and doesnt want to see a very good thread spoiled by silly comments. I think that says a lot about the man and his interest in this.

Futher more I asked him about possible damage to the ECU, he said it was possible but not likely so long as it was done properly, he also said that if the ECU did get ££££ed he had the tools to sort them out, whilst he could not promise to fix a busted ecu because it would depend on how busted it was he would be prepared to do every thing in his power to fix it.

Please dont take this personally anyone its not meant as a dig, it would just be a shame to see it all implode because a some ill feeling that has no place in this thread.

Thankyou
David

[S70T5Chris]

I too am purely interested in the results. More than anything else, I want to see what maps do what, and most of all how safe they are. The saftey of the fueling, I consider to be the most important thing to be looking at.

I was not knocking Hamish personally above (as i said), I appreciate his offer very much. It will allow us to carry out this test with very little cost involved, and actaully turn our 'idea' into reality. My concerns would be the same if it was suggesed we used Russ's or Don's RR (should they had one!).

I'd like to state categorically that my previous issues with Hamish are 100% set aside where this test is concerned. I'm genuenly interested in the results I hope us to achieve, that is it. I don't even have any feelings towards which map would 'come out on top' or any of that crap.

[Liddo]

Thread Closed?????

[Yosser]

For the record, I have no axe to grind with Hamish. I'm currently running one of his ECU's in my car and am happy with both the product and the service I received.

I would be as curious to see this experiment conducted as the next guy, in fact, I was intending to do a side by side comparision with an MTE map in my own car but (so far) I've been unable to source a standard ECU at what I consider a reasonable price.

Push on, it's a good idea.

[wegal]

Thread Closed?????

I really hope not ! lol

[AlanG]

What is this all about? We all have T5s of some descrcription. They are all very powerfull,fast cars.The chappy with 590hp wont be beaten so whats the point in bickering? Be happy wi your car,one day you will look back. One day,you may be driving a diesel. Some of them are very entertaining nowadays but they don't rev or sound like a T5. BMW 535d 286bhp!!!Still only a 3.0 litre
Same as the old M6 as it was in the late 80's
What about the Rica D5?
It's all relative. On the road it's different. I raced a 535d (new model) with my old 2.5 20V manual. Mine was quicker up to daft speed,probably down to revs. Chipped T5 now and won't be takin' any prisoners...........