Which Remap?

[cornclose]

So it sounds like :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

Custom re-maps, don't use RICA, as RICA themselves don't advocate manipulation of their software above the standard re-map.

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

[Mrsmopp]

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

Spot on

[Justin]

To add some clarity to the rica side of things, here is what i know to be factual.

Rica PPc is not and off the shelf map, or any other specific map. Rica PPC is simply the tool for programming the car. It can program the car with any rica software including specific maps but is pre programmed with an off the shelf map unless otherwise requested.

In terms of technical process, custom mapping is no different to developing off the shelf maps, It involves optimizing the map for the relevant components on the car. An off the shelf map is basically a custom template developed for a standard car with standard factory spec components that has been designed with certain tolerances so that it works on all cars without the need for alteration, these are developed and tested by Rica.

Stage 2 and 3 maps are also custom templates designed for popular upgrades such as 19T turbo, 3" downpipes etc. These are designed the same as off the shelf maps without the need for any significant alterations, although they often need tweaking to optimise (Mine did) Again they are developed and tested at Rica.

Full custom maps would only be used if the cars standard form is significantly changed, IE the engine or components are a unique setup with say a garett turbo, FMIC, larger injectors and custom manifold. This is where the problems are most likely to occur as the car in most cases isnt actually at Rica. This means the end results will only be as good as the information supplied to rica by the customer or tuning shop working on the car. Its also a very time consuming process.

HTH

[wegal]

This debate is pretty academic..... If you buy a standard remap from any of the well known brands it will work. Just like volvo have a map for each car that is designed to operate over a large rangeof peramiters so the tuning companies offer the same thing. They are just optimising some aspects ( boost, fueling, timing and in some cases throttle response) to operate at levels designed to release some extra horses. Even stage 2 and 3 maps are pretty much the same just with a few tweaks to get the benefit from the additional bolted on toys ( down pipes etc etc)

A custom map is a very different beast and are in my opinion dangerous territory, it doesnt take much to go wrong with the fueling or boost and you have a dead engine and an expensive repair. Engine maps contain many vairables and just getting one wrong can make the car run very badly or kill it.

All that said you buy a standard ( I use the word standard to Include MTE even though MTE do require you to send them a indentity file from your car to get the best tune, although they also offer an off the shelf version) reamp and you are increasing the stess on your engine and drive train, even though all the tuning sites claim it wont affect the car, well it will. If you dont use the extra power then it will have no effect, if you do then it stands to reason that more boost and more fuel equals more power which equals more component stress. If you reamp a car with 150,000 miles to stage 3 dont be to suprised when something breaks. Volvos standard map isnt there to spoil your fun its used because it ensures longevity of the car.

If you are going for a "standard remap" then find someone who has EXACTLY the same car as you and ask their opinion, its really not much use someone with a 15 year old 850 running one of the Rica maps telling you that Rica is the best as the map for your 2 year old car will be totally different and so will the driving experience.

There is the long and seemingly never ending debate about the Volvotuning issue. That should really be put to bed now as its no longer relevent to what is happening in the tuning world today.

Remaps are opinion based, the comments you get about which one is best is totally based in people expectations and perceptions. Not based in fact. As far as I am aware no one has taken a map from all the main tuning companys and put them on the same car, then done a true comparison - based on facts.

What happened to chris's car happened and it is very unfortunate indeed, but the instant you start playing with true custom maps then you are taking very big risks that applies to both the owner and the tuner.

If you are bolting on some really different toys to your car and then remapping the ecu to use those toys you have to accept that you have just stepped into unknown territory and as such anything could happen if you are going this route have written agreement with the tuner as to who is responsible for what if it goes wrong.

If you are unsure, then ask the tuner to give you the name and address of someone whos car they have tuned that is the same as yours and ask the user their view. Any good tuner would not be afraid to give you this information, also make sure that they have been running the map for a while as problems can develop later that might not be evident at first.

So in short........ do your home work, talk to people who have the SAME car as you. Talk to ALL the tuners and if possible get a reference from them. You are moddifying the second most expensive thing you will ever buy, so be a smart buyer and understand all the risks.

[Loadsamiles]

I don't want to cause trouble but what do you mean by this? I'm afraid I am oblivious to the previous discussions about this as I am still quite new. Are you saying that the PPC RICA upgrade is no good and doesn't increase the power? Although I'm sure it does as my car is like a different car now. Sorry if I'm opening up a massive can of worms but I've spent a lot of money on my RICA upgrade and I want to make sure its money well spent. It would be good to hear all sides sensibly if poss. PM me if you don't want to cause a big argument.

Read my post again...

I cannot vouch for anything on the PPC maps, but I have been lead to believe that they are different to the old Rica 310 for the ME7.

I was asking particularly about the AFR figures for the pre (meaning before) PPC RICA maps.

For I know them to be running the combustion VERY hot (lean)

The difference between a good re-map and a half baked re-map is the safety margins built into the tuning.
You can easily get 2 maps to produce the same power, and both maps run fine for years, but suddenly put both in a demanding situation and one will cope fine, whilst the other falls over.

[S70T5Chris]

I’d like to respond the Wegal’s comments please. All in the name of a good debate, and helping people in the future.

This debate is pretty academic.....

Not so IMHO!

If you buy a standard remap from any of the well known brands it will work. Just like volvo have a map for each car that is designed to operate over a large rangeof peramiters so the tuning companies offer the same thing. They are just optimising some aspects ( boost, fueling, timing and in some cases throttle response) to operate at levels designed to release some extra horses. Even stage 2 and 3 maps are pretty much the same just with a few tweaks to get the benefit from the additional bolted on toys ( down pipes etc etc)

Totally agree! The standard remaps available from all the different brands will work. But how well they work is a totally different matter altogether…

A custom map is a very different beast and are in my opinion dangerous territory, it doesnt take much to go wrong with the fueling or boost and you have a dead engine and an expensive repair. Engine maps contain many vairables and just getting one wrong can make the car run very badly or kill it.

This is and isn’t accurate!! As Justin has pointed out a custom map is simply another alternative to what we call ‘an off the shelf map’. It’s written in exactly the same way and should/may be done by the same people who write the ‘off the shelf’ maps. If the person writing the ‘custom’ remap cannot do the job properly then their ‘standard’ remaps won’t be much cop either IMO. The same processes are involved, just with a different car/setup. If the person who writes the software knows what they are doing, the risk is no greater than installing an ‘off the shelf remap’. (assuming, in both cases, that the car being remapped is up to standard!).

However it CAN BE dangerous when you take your car to someone who doesn’t know what they are doing!

All that said you buy a standard ( I use the word standard to Include MTE even though MTE do require you to send them a indentity file from your car to get the best tune, although they also offer an off the shelf version) reamp and you are increasing the stess on your engine and drive train, even though all the tuning sites claim it wont affect the car, well it will. If you dont use the extra power then it will have no effect, if you do then it stands to reason that more boost and more fuel equals more power which equals more component stress. If you reamp a car with 150,000 miles to stage 3 dont be to suprised when something breaks. Volvos standard map isnt there to spoil your fun its used because it ensures longevity of the car.

I’d agree with that statement. If you tune the car beyond the manufacturers spec, then rag the living hell out of it, and don’t look after it properly, something may give eventually. Having said that, there are many cars floating around with colossal mileage running remaps and beyond.

If you are going for a "standard remap" then find someone who has EXACTLY the same car as you and ask their opinion, its really not much use someone with a 15 year old 850 running one of the Rica maps telling you that Rica is the best as the map for your 2 year old car will be totally different and so will the driving experience.

Absolutely! But you can get a good idea on what to expect, in terms of service and quality, from people experiences using different software providers.

There is the long and seemingly never ending debate about the Volvotuning issue. That should really be put to bed now as its no longer relevent to what is happening in the tuning world today.

That is totally wrong IMO. VolvoTuning was Hamish Lindsay and Adam Webber. Both of them are still around, and trying to make money from tuning Volvos. Just because VolvoTuning Ltd have folded up doesn’t mean that we are all safe from Adam and Hamish’s ££££ ups. They are still out there, just operating under a different guise.

Remaps are opinion based, the comments you get about which one is best is totally based in people expectations and perceptions. Not based in fact.

That’s not true at all. Since my ‘unfortunate’ incident, I’ve tried to grasp a better understanding of this tuning game. My ‘opinions’ are based on the facts I’ve read or witnessed, and most importantly my own personal experiences.

As far as I am aware no one has taken a map from all the main tuning companys and put them on the same car, then done a true comparison - based on facts.

I believe you’re correct. I for one would like to see this happen very much. IIRC, this was suggested at the one of the dyno days a few months ago, and the only person/company to step up to the plate was Don from Kalmar Union.

What happened to chris's car happened and it is very unfortunate indeed, but the instant you start playing with true custom maps then you are taking very big risks that applies to both the owner and the tuner.

I agree with you. In my case, I should have done more research than simply believed what I was told by the company that I had been using and spent a lot of money with for 3 years. At the end of the day, VolvoTuning (& HLM) just wanted to make money. That is the simple fact. They were not interested in giving me a decent product that did what it said on the tin, they were not interested in providing me with great customer service. They wanted one thing only, to make money. I was in the wrong for going to them in the first place. I should have trusted the people who told me so, and therefore I admit a certain amount of responsibility for what happened to my car. I made the decision to trust Adam Webber & Hamish Lindsay.

If you are bolting on some really different toys to your car and then remapping the ecu to use those toys you have to accept that you have just stepped into unknown territory and as such anything could happen if you are going this route have written agreement with the tuner as to who is responsible for what if it goes wrong.

Again, yes and no! It all depends on who you’re using to map your car. And no tuner in the world is gonna give you a piece of paper to say if your car blows up they admit liability.

If you are unsure, then ask the tuner to give you the name and address of someone whos car they have tuned that is the same as yours and ask the user their view. Any good tuner would not be afraid to give you this information, also make sure that they have been running the map for a while as problems can develop later that might not be evident at first.

That is fantastic advice. I wish I’d have done that before my troubles. If I had, I’d have realised that my car was the first P1 car for the amazing hybrid conversion. Not what I was told by the ever so truthful Hamish Lindsay.

So in short........ do your home work, talk to people who have the SAME car as you. Talk to ALL the tuners and if possible get a reference from them. You are moddifying the second most expensive thing you will ever buy, so be a smart buyer and understand all the risks.

I second that!!

[S70T5Chris]

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

I think in both cases, you need to do your research. Even the 'off the shelf' maps may have their downsides.

[S70T5Chris]

I'm thinking of getting my ECU remapped.
Any recommendations?
RICA, BSR?

It's a 2.0t 2002 Cab.

Anyone had one remapped?
Any benefits MPG wise?

Cheers,
Tel

Hi Mate

Sorry for steering your thread and original question off in another direction!

I think the best thing you can do is find someone who has had a 2.0t remapped. I don't think anyone who's replied has!! Start a new thread 'has anyone with a 2.0t been remapped?' LOL!

Good luck with what ever you decide to go with!

Chris.

[Justin]

I believe you’re correct. I for one would like to see this happen very much. IIRC, this was suggested at the one of the dyno days a few months ago, and the only person/company to step up to the plate was Don from Kalmar Union.

I have been suggesting it for years Chris, but no one has ever been willing to put their money where their mouth is. Get a good base car, do a stock run then let the relevant companies tune the same ecu, same day, same rollers same fuel etc. Dead cause IMO but good luck.

On another note you are exactly the person, but in the same breath not the right person to be commenting on this thread and pulling wegal up. Just my opinion

[S70T5Chris]

I have been suggesting it for years Chris, but no one has ever been willing to put their money where their mouth is. Get a good base car, do a stock run then let the relevant companies tune the same ecu, same day, same rollers same fuel etc. Dead cause IMO but good luck.

On another note you are exactly the person, but in the same breath not the right person to be commenting on this thread and pulling wegal up. Just my opinion

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

[T5-TEZ]

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

Well said Chris.

[Justin]

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

I wouldn't as its just old news mate. Whether you prefer MTE or any other company makes no odds to me, whom you associate with has no interest to me either, let Don do it if he can get the otehrs too i will be suprised though, they were never willing before.....

Pulling up wasn't quite the right wording, more examining, none of it was offensive, just the issues you have had makes you the wrong person to be involved, but like i said in the same breath the right one.
This is all dead and buried AFAIK, its like digging up Guy Fawkes and asking him to answer to global warming for me. At the end of the day whats done is done, there is enough on the net not just here to warn people off if they looked, so like i said, nose in the air and carry on

[S70T5Chris]

This is all dead and buried AFAIK, its like digging up Guy Fawkes and asking him to answer to global warming for me. At the end of the day whats done is done, there is enough on the net not just here to warn people off if they looked, so like i said, nose in the air and carry on

If you're referring to the Volvotuning/HLM, maybe you're right, however Like I said above the same people responsible for what happened to me are still around playing with peoples cars, so it is still relevant IMO. That won't change.

If you're referring to the debate between different remaps, that's far from dead and buried. That debate will go on forever and a day!! I have my reaosns why I believe RICA remaps are inferior to others. When someone asks, I''ll tell them!

[wegal]

S70T5CHRIS, no offence taken at all, thats what debate is about, only through sensible debates like this thread has so far been do we get the information that we need to make informed choices and decisions, your comments to my post are welcome as far as Im concerned.

I wasnt aware that Adam was still in the volvo tuning world. I am now also an MTE convert but I cannot complain at all about the service I recieved from HLM, even though I decided on a different map in the end for a variety of reasons, I cant really say anything bad about HLM or hamish as in my experience with them they have treated me in a very fair way. I dont want to go into details as its between me and HLM but my car developed an intermitant fault which HLM spent a great deal of time and money trying to fix, and never charged me a penny, which considering Hamish spent 2 days solid on two seperate occassions and wanted the car back to finish the job still at his expense I have no axe to grind with them at all. Even though I now run the MTE map I would hope that I would still be welcome at HLM, and in all fairness I would use them again should the need arise.

I genuinely think that you had an aweful experince there that is probably not representative of the level of service that HLM normally provide on day to day basis. As said though that is only my experience of them. Besides lets not make this a HLM bashing /defending thread, its so far been an interesting look into peoples perceptions of remapping... mine included !

[Mrsmopp]

Well said Chris.

Great contribution to the discussion

Regarding getting ALL the tuners to take part in the comparision I just cant see it ever happening.

Can you really see a company like Superchips co-operating? Or Upsolute? Volvo's must be such a small proportion of their market that we are almost insignificant (compared to the saxo's and the 316 beemers lol )

I think its great that Don is willing and able to put his products up and would be happy for independant comparisions to be carried out but I cant see many standing beside him with that attitude sadly

We can still hold out a little hope though..............

[T5-TEZ]

Great contribution to the discussion

Regarding getting ALL the tuners to take part in the comparision I just cant see it ever happening.

Can you really see a company like Superchips co-operating? Or Upsolute? Volvo's must be such a small proportion of their market that we are almost insignificant (compared to the saxo's and the 316 beemers lol )

I think its great that Don is willing and able to put his products up and would be happy for independant comparisions to be carried out but I cant see many standing beside him with that attitude sadly

We can still hold out a little hope though..............

I thought so.

[wegal]

Well there is a way to do this test but its expensive ! I dont think superchips and people like that are all that relevent anyway, the main remaps people use on their volvos are HLm Rica MTE and BSR, everyone but HLM offer their map in some form off ppc style system. I have the MTE one and a 3 year old car with an auto box so if dyno'd we only get WHP and not Crank bhp figures which are always frankly dubious on a rolling road anyway.

So how much is the Rica PPC and the BSR PPC ? I can reset my car to standard with the MTE softloader run it on a dyno, as a base test and then upload the other maps and repeat the excersice. 2 PPC's + 4 hours of dyno time ( awesome charge £100 per hour) is what about a grand ? not beyond the bounds of possibility really.

My only worry and I would want confirmation of this is that flashing my ECU repeatedly wont bugger it up otherwise a grand becomes 2 !

Wonder if Russ would supply a Rica PPC at a discount ? Or one of the BSR agents ? The PPC can be returned after the test so it could be reused for some one else ???? ( forgive my ignorance here maybe it cant)

A grand to put this debate to bed might just be worth it. If we did the test at HLM then we could include the HLM map as well. It doesnt matter what dyno we use so long as its all done on the same day at the same dyno. I also have more confidence in Hamish to dyno the car than say awesome as they struggled with an auto box.

If we can get a few people to contribute this could be a goer.... assuming some one like don or Tim Williams gives me some confidence it wont ££££ up my car !

[wegal]

In fact.... ill start the process..... Ill put £500 of my money into the experiment. any one care to join in ?

[S70T5Chris]

Well there is a way to do this test but its expensive ! I dont think superchips and people like that are all that relevent anyway, the main remaps people use on their volvos are HLm Rica MTE and BSR, everyone but HLM offer their map in some form off ppc style system. I have the MTE one and a 3 year old car with an auto box so if dyno'd we only get WHP and not Crank bhp figures which are always frankly dubious on a rolling road anyway.

So how much is the Rica PPC and the BSR PPC ? I can reset my car to standard with the MTE softloader run it on a dyno, as a base test and then upload the other maps and repeat the excersice. 2 PPC's + 4 hours of dyno time ( awesome charge £100 per hour) is what about a grand ? not beyond the bounds of possibility really.

My only worry and I would want confirmation of this is that flashing my ECU repeatedly wont bugger it up otherwise a grand becomes 2 !

Wonder if Russ would supply a Rica PPC at a discount ? Or one of the BSR agents ? The PPC can be returned after the test so it could be reused for some one else ???? ( forgive my ignorance here maybe it cant)

A grand to put this debate to bed might just be worth it. If we did the test at HLM then we could include the HLM map as well. It doesnt matter what dyno we use so long as its all done on the same day at the same dyno. I also have more confidence in Hamish to dyno the car than say awesome as they struggled with an auto box.

If we can get a few people to contribute this could be a goer.... assuming some one like don or Tim Williams gives me some confidence it wont ££££ up my car !

Fair play for offering your car to do the testing on!! I would also want confirmation that no damage would be caused to your car by trying lots of different maps on the ecu!

Like I said I would be very willing to put money into a pot to do this test. Russ is a BSR dealer as well as RICA. Like you say, maybe Russ could throw one of each in for a discount price?!! What you rekon Russ?! It would definately put an end to this on going debate.

If one remap is worse than another, there is absolute proof to say so. If there's nothing in it then that shuts everyone up also!

As for the 'doing it at HLM' option. I don't think it matters what dyno the runs are done on, so long as its the same for every run. And if, hypathetically it was done on your car, then whatever dyno you were most happy with is fair enough. But idealy I'd like to be there. Me going back to HLM? It would be lovely to see Hamish again, catch up on old times!!!

[Saaamon]

(For this comment i will base it on the two more popular companies.) Its all well and good getting the companies together and to test a car on one rolling road with all the products, but its not about fiqures, its how the cars go like on the road. Some people prefer progressive power deliever, such as an MTE and others want instant aggressive power deliever which from what i'm lead to believe that is what you can expect from a RICA. This doesn't mean to say either of the two re-maps are better or worse its just about what you want from your car.