rica remap need some feedback please

[irf]

Irf,

1) Your'e not wrong there. Didn't you run on a dyno recently that was recording or calculating or guessing 100 bhp of drag losses through the transmission of a front wheel drive car? Surely that would mean a Volvo V70 2.4 would only record 40 bhp at the wheels
2)The very rich was as standard, so yes we have sorted that out as you can see with the after curve.
3) Thanks for the kind words about our Dynojet.You should come and have a go on it sometime I know you would be suprised by it's accuaracy

All the Best,
Hamish.

no thanks, i'd rather blow my car up myself. but thanks for the offer.

[hamish]

would the lower octain level affect the afr's irf? due to big pete was using 95 octain on a 304 map when this dyno was done

Yes and No Pete!!!

It would have an effect if the map was compensating / altering as a result of the increased knock caused by the lower grade perol and going to a fuel enrichment table to protect.
That wasn't the problem here though.

Doh...sorry Pete I've just seen you were asking IRF for his "X Spert" onion on all things AFR

Regards,
H.

[Loadsamiles]

Didn't you run on a dyno recently that was recording or calculating or guessing 100 bhp of drag losses through the transmission of a front wheel drive car? Surely that would mean a Volvo V70 2.4 would only record 40 bhp at the wheels


All the Best,
Hamish.

Hamish you numbskull....

Transmission losses are a percentage of power/torque, not a fixed BHP figure.


DOH!

[hamish]

Hamish you numbskull....

Transmission losses are a percentage of power/torque, not a fixed BHP figure.


DOH!

Julian you muppet,

As you know everything I would have thought that you would know that Transmission or rather Drag losses are fixed and only increase with Speed. Think about it stupid.
Same car same day same dyno. It comes in standard you tune it and run it again the drag losses will be near identical the software in the ecu isn't going to increase the drag in the drivetrain is it
Or you're pedalling your bicycle to the pub you have to much to drink so your mate who is the same weight as you but stronger rides it home. The drag losses of your bicycle aren't going to increase just because the rider has been down the gym and eaten spinach.

Think about it

Regards,
H.

[Loadsamiles]

Julian you muppet,

As you know everything I would have thought that you would know that Transmission or rather Drag losses are fixed and only increase with Speed. Think about it stupid.
Same car same day same dyno. It comes in standard you tune it and run it again the drag losses will be near identical the software in the ecu isn't going to increase the drag in the drivetrain is it
Or you're pedalling your bicycle to the pub you have to much to drink so your mate who is the same weight as you but stronger rides it home. The drag losses of your bicycle aren't going to increase just because the rider has been down the gym and eaten spinach.

Think about it

Regards,
H.

Oh dear!

So what you're saying is that on a MAHA RAM3000 dyno a V70 2.4 would pull 40BHP @ Wheels.... Yes?

Or...

Irf's 30% (ish) Losses would not equate to a 30% (ish) loss on the 2.4 resulting in 108 BHP @ wheels?


My brain hurts!!!


[ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tqyxXX3Ra4A&feature=related[/ame]

[PEAKUNDER]

Sorry, couldn't reisist it.......

[ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM[/ame]

[Loadsamiles]

Julian you muppet,

As you know everything I would have thought that you would know that Transmission or rather Drag losses are fixed and only increase with Speed. Think about it stupid.
Same car same day same dyno. It comes in standard you tune it and run it again the drag losses will be near identical the software in the ecu isn't going to increase the drag in the drivetrain is it
Or you're pedalling your bicycle to the pub you have to much to drink so your mate who is the same weight as you but stronger rides it home. The drag losses of your bicycle aren't going to increase just because the rider has been down the gym and eaten spinach.

Think about it

Regards,
H.

OK Dr Bonehead.

Here is a brief explanation.

The drivetrain losses are mainly due to friction. Friction in the bearings and friction in the gears.

In order for the gears to work the cog surfaces have to slide (slightly) over one another as they engage and dis-engage. Just as there is friction in all the bearings.

Lets debunk this statement of yours
"Transmission or rather Drag losses are fixed and only increase with Speed"

Let's imagine my "heap of crap" V70. (I know you love it really)

If I were to support the front end on axle stands would it take 100BHP just to turn the wheels at 130 mph in free air? No of course it wouldn't I could do that with a 40BHP bike engine.

Why?

Well there would be very little load on the gears and bearings, so they wouldn't be pushing against each other with much force at all. They would be lightly skipping past each other with a nice film of oil between them. All very slick like.

Now lets imagine slamming 500Lbft of torque through the same gear system (ouch) The pressure between all the contact points would be immense. In order for the surfaces to "slide" past each other would take considerably more force.
With all the drivetrain pushed together so hard it would easily take 100BHP to make it all slide and revolve just to overcome the friction.

Lets go to a simple analogy.

I have a 1ft cube of plastic sat on a metal floor, to push it along would take a unit of force. If I then pushed down on that cube by 5 times it's own weight (sat a fat bloke on it) it would take much more force to move it. It doesn't matter how fast the cube is moving, with greater force acting upon the friction surfaces it will take more force to move it. Thus with the fat bloke sat on it there are more losses.

I can spin a gearbox all day at a set speed with a light load and it will remain at a constant temperature. I can maintain that speed but increase the load ten fold and the operating temperature of the gearbox will rise. Where does all that extra heat come from? It's power sapped from the drivetrain through increased friction. Heat doesn't come from nowhere.

Of course, lubricant, and the quality of lubricant helps negate some of this effect, but it doesn't by any means eliminate it.

So... A car applying a light load to an M56 gearbox at a certain speed will result in less power lost through it than a car applying three times that load at the same speed.


Of course, you won't see this on a direct coast down on a dyno as the dyno applies a constant load each time irrespective of the car. That's why you think all transmission losses are the same.
The dyno software has to guestimate the losses based on the static coast down figure and the power developed by the car.

It's simple laws of physics.
More pressure on sliding surfaces = more resistance to moving


Thus. Transmission losses are directly related to speed and force applied.


Here endeth the lesson for today.

[Loadsamiles]

Of course the best place to observe this is in a generator. To achieve 50Hz the RPM MUST remain constant, but under heavy load, transmission (what little it has) temperature will rise significantly.

[Loadsamiles]

As you say.....

I'm no expert.....

But I do understand Physics.

[ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s&feature=related[/ame]

[Jod T5]

Hello whos the guy that has claimed 275 whp

He did...

I went up with 95 octaine but still managed 270.15 bhp at the wheels

if your thinking its me you should get your facts rite and read the posts i have never stated that

I never said you...Did I?...., i just suggested that as you seemed to have some knowledge you may be able to clarify a point for me....

it was some one else called big pete not t5 pete

This highly tech stuff is really keeping me tested....

i think its time you go to specsavers

LOL..,Now you being Specsist..., a lot of people would take offence to that, especially as ive just shelled out for a new set....

its done by a chip being removed and the rica one soldered onto the ecu but i geuss you allready know this dont you

Yes.., I do...

Great graph BTW, (Big Pete) I will have a look at it when i have some time but first impressions...............
Cheers
Jod

[Mrsmopp]

Just a polite notice, can we refrain from getting too personal please?

x

[Justin]

Agreed ^^^^

Hamsih and Julian, can you 2 just get a room!!!!

[Enigma666]

Can I have the room next door so I can hear what goes on?
At least the physics is all correct Who ever would have thought GCSE Physics would keep me so well informed lol

[hamish]

OK Dr Bonehead.

Here is a brief explanation.

The drivetrain losses are mainly due to friction. Friction in the bearings and friction in the gears.

In order for the gears to work the cog surfaces have to slide (slightly) over one another as they engage and dis-engage. Just as there is friction in all the bearings.

Lets debunk this statement of yours
"Transmission or rather Drag losses are fixed and only increase with Speed"

Let's imagine my "heap of crap" V70. (I know you love it really)

If I were to support the front end on axle stands would it take 100BHP just to turn the wheels at 130 mph in free air? No of course it wouldn't I could do that with a 40BHP bike engine.

Why?

Well there would be very little load on the gears and bearings, so they wouldn't be pushing against each other with much force at all. They would be lightly skipping past each other with a nice film of oil between them. All very slick like.

Now lets imagine slamming 500Lbft of torque through the same gear system (ouch) The pressure between all the contact points would be immense. In order for the surfaces to "slide" past each other would take considerably more force.
With all the drivetrain pushed together so hard it would easily take 100BHP to make it all slide and revolve just to overcome the friction.

Lets go to a simple analogy.

I have a 1ft cube of plastic sat on a metal floor, to push it along would take a unit of force. If I then pushed down on that cube by 5 times it's own weight (sat a fat bloke on it) it would take much more force to move it. It doesn't matter how fast the cube is moving, with greater force acting upon the friction surfaces it will take more force to move it. Thus with the fat bloke sat on it there are more losses.

I can spin a gearbox all day at a set speed with a light load and it will remain at a constant temperature. I can maintain that speed but increase the load ten fold and the operating temperature of the gearbox will rise. Where does all that extra heat come from? It's power sapped from the drivetrain through increased friction. Heat doesn't come from nowhere.

Of course, lubricant, and the quality of lubricant helps negate some of this effect, but it doesn't by any means eliminate it.

So... A car applying a light load to an M56 gearbox at a certain speed will result in less power lost through it than a car applying three times that load at the same speed.


Of course, you won't see this on a direct coast down on a dyno as the dyno applies a constant load each time irrespective of the car. That's why you think all transmission losses are the same.
The dyno software has to guestimate the losses based on the static coast down figure and the power developed by the car.

It's simple laws of physics.
More pressure on sliding surfaces = more resistance to moving


Thus. Transmission losses are directly related to speed and force applied.


Here endeth the lesson for today.

Julian,

You really have lived up to your title here "Sir Drivle Alot"! You are testiculating to the highest order again.
"More pressure on sliding surfaces = more resistance to moving"
So how much friction or drag losses are there in a Big End Bearing?
I'm sure you know the answer with all your knowledge and understanding of Physics. (I'll help you here the answer is very little. Now 10% of next to nothing is still bugger all.)
"Transmission losses are directly related to speed and force applied"
This is true however the increases in force in the context of an automotive transmission have very little effect on the drag losses. It is speed that is the main factor here.

Anyway best of luck with your new carreer as a Physics Teacher....I hope it fits in with being a Guru on everything.

Happy Xmas,
Hamish.

[dasmith]

Both of you should read the following from another forum I am a member of

And it's from a Dyno Manufacturer:

Much of the losses aren't in fact losses, but unmeasured power requirements.

At constant speed, power is calculated by measuring the torque reaction of the retarder, However there is power required just to be able to turn over the rollers & retarder, windage of the retarder (which has rotors very similar to a centrifugal pump) boundary layer windage from the rollers, parasitic drag from bearings, seals & grease etc. So just to be able to turn over the rollers requires power in itself that goes unmeasured by the retarder. The power unmeasured increases with speed in an exponential fashion.

The other power losses (or drag as it is displayed on SUN/MAHA dyno's) is a combination of heat & noise from the tyres, gearbox, bearings etc, windage from rotating components such as wheels/tyres, brake disks, & shafts. Other factors which cause different drag/losses is the seperation of the rollers, those dyno's which have the rollers further apart cause greater drag, as the tyre deformation is greater, as it causes the tyre to be 'pinched' the same goes for smaller diameter rollers.

The faster the 'road speed' the greater the losses, as the heat/noise losses goes up, as does windage of the afore mentioned parasitic absorbtions .

HTH

[Loadsamiles]

Much of the losses aren't in fact losses, but unmeasured power requirements.

At constant speed, power is calculated by measuring the torque reaction of the retarder, However there is power required just to be able to turn over the rollers & retarder, windage of the retarder (which has rotors very similar to a centrifugal pump) boundary layer windage from the rollers, parasitic drag from bearings, seals & grease etc. So just to be able to turn over the rollers requires power in itself that goes unmeasured by the retarder. The power unmeasured increases with speed in an exponential fashion.

The other power losses (or drag as it is displayed on SUN/MAHA dyno's) is a combination of heat & noise from the tyres, gearbox, bearings etc, windage from rotating components such as wheels/tyres, brake disks, & shafts. Other factors which cause different drag/losses is the seperation of the rollers, those dyno's which have the rollers further apart cause greater drag, as the tyre deformation is greater, as it causes the tyre to be 'pinched' the same goes for smaller diameter rollers.

The faster the 'road speed' the greater the losses, as the heat/noise losses goes up, as does windage of the afore mentioned parasitic absorbtions .

Interesting. But that would have the same effect on WHP and Fly HP, as it's common to both sets of measurements.

[Alan M]

Hub Dynamometers are different again and a lot more accurate. The losses there are not as bad due to the obvious no wheel contact to rollers but are directly hub mounted.

[hamish]

Interesting. But that would have the same effect on WHP and Fly HP, as it's common to both sets of measurements.

I think I have just wet myself laughing. Julian you really are special.
You really don't have 2 brain cells to rub together. Now please run along back to the T5D5 cave where you can testiculate uninterupted.

[t5 pete]

[QUOTE=Jod T5;200391]

LOL..,Now you being Specsist..., a lot of people would take offence to that, especially as ive just shelled out for a new set....

Well you have made my day thankyou very much
But if i have upset you in any way with regards to specsavers i do appoligise

Cheers pete

[Jod T5]

Well you have made my day thankyou very much
But if i have upset you in any way with regards to specsavers i do appoligise

Pete i am glad you enjoyed my comment..I have been called far worse before so there is no hard feelings..........

You will see that the car was producing approx 200bhp at the wheels and the gains were small which is what I would expct from the car/tune/petrol combination.

Well that answers my question thankyou Hamish.., Clearly the purchaser of your map was misguided in his interpretation of the figures..., which I accept...
FWIW, i appeciate the guy was running premium fuel but even so i would be disapointed if these were my results...
Cheers
Jod