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MacXC60T5
Saturday 24th December 2005, 17:04
OIL for V70 T5
What oil do fellow T5 members use
Thanks

Al115
Saturday 24th December 2005, 17:13
Again - a question that's come up several times before!

If you want a quick answer, search the forum to see what's been said in the past.

Cheers,


Alastair

Al115
Saturday 24th December 2005, 17:13
And in general - fully synth 10w40 or 5w40! :)

Rufe
Saturday 24th December 2005, 17:30
we supply 10w40 shell helix semi synthetic for all the T5's in work (volvo dealer)

weasel
Sunday 25th December 2005, 01:42
local dealer used to use total oil because they had a promotional deal apparently. they told me they were changing to magnatec, which is what i use.

Vikingxl
Sunday 25th December 2005, 01:49
Shell Ultra Helix 5W 40

dicky b t5
Sunday 25th December 2005, 02:01
Use what Volvo Recommend 10w-40...... I've heard some bad things about using fully Synth
oil......To thin & gets to hot......But thats only what i've been told..!!

I'm sure this will cause a few comments....lol..! :B_steerin

weasel
Sunday 25th December 2005, 19:26
'I've heard some bad things about using fully Synth
oil......To thin & gets to hot......But thats only what i've been told..!!'
nah it's only a problem if you change the oil too frequently ;-)

SaffronC70
Sunday 25th December 2005, 19:55
'I've heard some bad things about using fully Synth
oil......To thin & gets to hot......But thats only what i've been told..!!'
nah it's only a problem if you change the oil too frequently ;-)

That's why I use Millers CFS 10w60

Chris

MacXC60T5
Monday 26th December 2005, 10:22
Again - a question that's come up several times before!

If you want a quick answer, search the forum to see what's been said in the past.

Cheers,


Alastair

Alistair, Thanks for the reply, not wanting to appear totally thick that was the first place I thought of, put in search "Oil" "Which Oil" etc but nothing there my last resort to post a ? and great got some very useful replies. Thanks all. and have a nice day !!!!!!!

Redbrick
Monday 26th December 2005, 11:26
Alistair, Thanks for the reply, not wanting to appear totally thick that was the first place I thought of, put in search "Oil" "Which Oil" etc but nothing there my last resort to post a ? and great got some very useful replies. Thanks all. and have a nice day !!!!!!!

Yup the search function never works for me eiher!! I just searched for 'oil' and nothing came up.

Mine had used semi 10-40 up to 70k. I then decided that it would be really clever to stick 0-40 fully synthetic Mobil 1 in it- 'cause its the best isn't it?

Within a month it had sprung a leak on the rear main seal, a big bill and new clutch while everything was apart.

I've stuck with Mobil1 since and no problems. I'll be trying the Halfords 5-40 fully synthetic flavour next, I think.

Al115
Monday 26th December 2005, 11:34
Yeah, good point chaps!

Seems like the word "oil" is too short to work as a valid search term...!

pault5
Monday 26th December 2005, 12:09
Yup the search function never works for me eiher!! I just searched for 'oil' and nothing came up.

Mine had used semi 10-40 up to 70k. I then decided that it would be really clever to stick 0-40 fully synthetic Mobil 1 in it- 'cause its the best isn't it?

Within a month it had sprung a leak on the rear main seal, a big bill and new clutch while everything was apart.

I've stuck with Mobil1 since and no problems. I'll be trying the Halfords 5-40 fully synthetic flavour next, I think.

Exactly the same happened to mine. when i bought my car a few years ago :slap:

MacXC60T5
Tuesday 27th December 2005, 10:55
So there you go chaps, Iam not that thick LOL
thanks for the help. I might try Otimax in the
search enging and see whats comes up. LOL
Happy new year

MacXC60T5
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 15:07
Just asked my local Volvo Dealer. Who states that in all V70T5,s they use Mobile 1 Fully syth. Very interesting Thanks for all comments.

swordy21
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 15:30
Yup the search function never works for me eiher!! I just searched for 'oil' and nothing came up.

Mine had used semi 10-40 up to 70k. I then decided that it would be really clever to stick 0-40 fully synthetic Mobil 1 in it- 'cause its the best isn't it?

Within a month it had sprung a leak on the rear main seal, a big bill and new clutch while everything was apart.

I've stuck with Mobil1 since and no problems. I'll be trying the Halfords 5-40 fully synthetic flavour next, I think.

Since I've had the T5 I've had Volvo supplied fully synth, whatever, the Valvoline semi that VT put in, 3 goes at Millers XSS 10w40 semi and last go, Halfords 5w40 fully synth. The Millers seems good value for money, but the Halfords oil really does seem to make a difference to smoothness of running and pick up.

I'm also running with Molyslip and give the engine a good flushing with Comma fllushing oil at each change - 5 - 7K.

Everything seems clean as a whistle and no leaks.

BlackBeast
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 15:31
Silkolene Pro-S 5w-40

Liddo
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 16:33
Stella Artois 5.2%.................It's cheaper than oil at the moment ;)

stuAWD
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 17:04
The man who services mine, looked in the book and verified 10/40 semi synthetic.

mat562be
Wednesday 28th December 2005, 21:23
Millers XFS 5w50. Fantastic stuff that I've used for years in my old Cosworths. Now doing a stirling job in the Volly. Also use a 250ml bottle of Xtralube ZX1 additive every 12000 or so, and swear by it for longevity of the engine internals and smoother/more economical running. Change the oil every 6000 or so (twice as often as Volve recommend.)

NugentS
Thursday 29th December 2005, 09:26
Silkolene Pro-S 5w-40

I use the same stuff. Seems to work. I've even had some UOA done nd its come up with good figures.

Sean

oilman
Wednesday 4th January 2006, 13:13
5w-40 synthetic would be the best suited.

10w-40's are generally semi-synthetic. They are inferior to synthetics and require shorter drain periods.

I would say that 10w-60 is too thick causing additional friction, heat and wear plus lower BHP at the wheels and poorer fuel consumption.

Cheers
Simon

MattB
Monday 9th January 2006, 18:42
Some interesting, but mixed views on here guys.
So, without wanting to drag on too much with this - what's the verdict?

10w40 Part Synthetic?
10w40 Fully Synthetic?
5w40 Fully Synthetic?


10w-40's are generally semi-synthetic. They are inferior to synthetics and require shorter drain periods.
does this matter if we are draining every 5k (half Volvo's suggested interval)?

t5owner
Monday 9th January 2006, 18:48
I caught something on one of the discovery channels over the weekend discussing about oils

5w is used in racing cars as it gives more BHP apperently but is not recommended for daily driving as it`s so thin it is apparently detrimental to the surfaces of the bearings in the engine this coming from a chap who works for maclaren and designs and builds their racing engines

So more light is shed on this just to totally confuse everybody

Cheers

stuart

oilman
Monday 9th January 2006, 22:16
That's plain nonsense, the lower the w number the better flow when cold and therefore less engine wear.

Cheers
Simon

SaffronC70
Monday 9th January 2006, 22:39
That's plain nonsense, the lower the w number the better flow when cold and therefore less engine wear.

Cheers
Simon

what about when hot ?

oilman
Monday 9th January 2006, 22:46
When hot, the 5w is almost irrelevent as then its all about the second number.

The first part of the number with the #w is the cold crank viscosity, the thinner it is at cold temps the quicker it works its way around the engine.

The second number relates to the viscosity of the oil when hot, this is measured at 100 deg and for most Volvo's 5w/10w and SEA 30/40/50 depending on use/mods and age etc.

Formular 1 cars run on 0w-20.

Cheers

Simon.

MattB
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 12:21
Thanks chaps - I guess the key question remaining is Part or Fully Synthetic?

MattB
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 22:09
Just had a look at Haynes - no clues there, so I'll just close my eyes and pick randomly at Halfrauds tomorrow!

oilman
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 22:17
Just had a look at Haynes - no clues there, so I'll just close my eyes and pick randomly at Halfrauds tomorrow!

10w-40 semi or 5w-40 full synthetic, either one is fine.

If you want the better quality oil and a longer drain interval go for a full synthetic.

CHeers

Simon.

BlackBeast
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 22:30
Simon, will there be any discounts offered for the members of this forum (even though i have enough Pro S to last me for a long while yet)?

p.s Like the new website :)

oilman
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 22:36
Simon, will there be any discounts offered for the members of this forum (even though i have enough Pro S to last me for a long while yet)?

p.s Like the new website :)
If the admins would like to contact me then it can be arranged without a problem but access to the members area of our site is granted on an individual member basis to ensure that people who are not entitled do not benefit.

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Tuesday 10th January 2006, 22:57
some might say it's best to continue using the oil that has been used previously. apparently, different detergents in different oils act differently upon the seals hence people having to replace seals when changing to mobil 1.

pyrotechnictigger
Wednesday 11th January 2006, 00:05
I have now heard from several peeps (none rocket scientists but mechanics) that changing oil too often is a bad thing. I also know a very good mechanic who swears by Millers.

My old UNO would only ever do 95. Put fully synth halfords in it and it would crack 100. Simple proof to me that fully synth = less internal resistance but does that mean more wear?

Oilman, good time to join the forum when ANOTHER oil thread starts up :wink: Welcome to the forum :)

S60D5
Wednesday 11th January 2006, 00:18
My mothers T5 runs on Castrol Magnatec GTX 10w40.

My fathers T5 runs on "any" semi synth 10w40. Usually french stuff which is cheap.

My old T5 runs on Mobil 1 5w40 semi synth.

oilman
Wednesday 11th January 2006, 00:23
Actually synthetics do give better performance due to uniform molecules but it's the viscosity that really makes the difference.

This explains what I mean:

Quote:

Must Have MORE Power!

Motorcars are bought for all sorts of reasons, but enthusiasts like lots of power. To get more power, a lot of fuel must be burnt, and more than half of it, sadly, gets thrown away as waste heat. For every litre of fuel burnt, 60% of the energy goes as waste heat into the exhaust and cooling system. A turbocharger can extract a few percent as useful energy and convert it into pressure on the intake side, but only 40-45% is left, and only 25% actually shows up as BHP at the flywheel. 6% goes in pumping air into the engine, 6% as oil drag losses and 2-3% as engine friction.

The oil deals with 97% of the friction; so reducing the remaining few percent is not easy. If you doubt that even ordinary oil has a massive effect, take a clean, dry 200 bhp engine, connect it to a dyno and start it up. It will only make 1 bhp for a few seconds. Now that’s real friction for you!

Oddly enough, people get starry-eyed about reducing friction, especially those half-wits who peddle silly “magic additives”, which have not the smallest effect on friction but rapidly corrode bearings and wallet contents. In fact, even a virtually impossible 50% reduction in the remaining engine friction would be no big deal, perhaps one or two bhp or a couple of extra miles per gallon.

Even More Power!

He place to look for extra power is in that 6% lost as oil drag. In a well-designed modern motor, the oil doesn’t have to cover up for wide clearances, poor oil pump capacity or flexy crankshafts, so it can be quite thin. How thin? Well take a look at these dyno results.

A while ago now, we ran three Silkolene performance oils in a Honda Blackbird motorcycle. this fearsome device is fitted with a light, compact, naturally aspirated 1100cc engine which turns out 120+ bhp at the back wheel. The normal fill for this one-year-old engine was 15w-50, so the first reading was taken using a fresh sump-fill of this grade. (The dyno was set up for EEC horsepower, i.e. Pessimistic)

15w-50
Max Power 127.9 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 75.8 ft-lbs @ 7300 rpm

After a flush-out and fill up with 5w-40 the readings were;

5w-40
Max Power 131.6 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 77.7 ft-lbs @ 7400 rpm

Then we tried an experimental grade, 0w-20 yes, 0w-20! This wasn’t as risky as you may think, because this grade had already done a season’s racing with the Kawasaki World Superbike Team, giving them some useful extra power with no reliability problems. (But it must be said, they were only interested in 200 frantic miles before the engines went back to Japan)

0w-20
Max Power 134.4 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 78.9 ft-lbs @ 7400 rpm

In other words, 3.7 bhp / 2.9% increase from 15w-50 to 5w-40, a 2.8 bhp / 2.1% increase from 5w-40 to 0w-20 or a 6.5 bhp / 5% overall. Not bad, just for changing the oil! More to the point, a keen bike owner would have paid at least £1000 to see less improvement than this using the conventional approach of exhaust/intake mods, ignition re-mapping etc.

Unquote:

We have proved this theory (drag, sprints and endurance) and have found gains of up to 5% more bhp when using a 5w-40 against a 10w-60. It's about viscous drag.

Cheers
Simon

MacXC60T5
Friday 13th January 2006, 19:05
bu---r me he seems to know whats he,s talking about LOL

Engineer
Friday 13th January 2006, 20:28
Actually synthetics do give better performance due to uniform molecules but it's the viscosity that really makes the difference.

This explains what I mean:

Quote:

Must Have MORE Power!

Motorcars are bought for all sorts of reasons, but enthusiasts like lots of power. To get more power, a lot of fuel must be burnt, and more than half of it, sadly, gets thrown away as waste heat. For every litre of fuel burnt, 60% of the energy goes as waste heat into the exhaust and cooling system. A turbocharger can extract a few percent as useful energy and convert it into pressure on the intake side, but only 40-45% is left, and only 25% actually shows up as BHP at the flywheel. 6% goes in pumping air into the engine, 6% as oil drag losses and 2-3% as engine friction.

The oil deals with 97% of the friction; so reducing the remaining few percent is not easy. If you doubt that even ordinary oil has a massive effect, take a clean, dry 200 bhp engine, connect it to a dyno and start it up. It will only make 1 bhp for a few seconds. Now that’s real friction for you!

Oddly enough, people get starry-eyed about reducing friction, especially those half-wits who peddle silly “magic additives”, which have not the smallest effect on friction but rapidly corrode bearings and wallet contents. In fact, even a virtually impossible 50% reduction in the remaining engine friction would be no big deal, perhaps one or two bhp or a couple of extra miles per gallon.

Even More Power!

He place to look for extra power is in that 6% lost as oil drag. In a well-designed modern motor, the oil doesn’t have to cover up for wide clearances, poor oil pump capacity or flexy crankshafts, so it can be quite thin. How thin? Well take a look at these dyno results.

A while ago now, we ran three Silkolene performance oils in a Honda Blackbird motorcycle. this fearsome device is fitted with a light, compact, naturally aspirated 1100cc engine which turns out 120+ bhp at the back wheel. The normal fill for this one-year-old engine was 15w-50, so the first reading was taken using a fresh sump-fill of this grade. (The dyno was set up for EEC horsepower, i.e. Pessimistic)

15w-50
Max Power 127.9 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 75.8 ft-lbs @ 7300 rpm

After a flush-out and fill up with 5w-40 the readings were;

5w-40
Max Power 131.6 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 77.7 ft-lbs @ 7400 rpm

Then we tried an experimental grade, 0w-20 yes, 0w-20! This wasn’t as risky as you may think, because this grade had already done a season’s racing with the Kawasaki World Superbike Team, giving them some useful extra power with no reliability problems. (But it must be said, they were only interested in 200 frantic miles before the engines went back to Japan)

0w-20
Max Power 134.4 bhp @ 9750 rpm
Torque 78.9 ft-lbs @ 7400 rpm

In other words, 3.7 bhp / 2.9% increase from 15w-50 to 5w-40, a 2.8 bhp / 2.1% increase from 5w-40 to 0w-20 or a 6.5 bhp / 5% overall. Not bad, just for changing the oil! More to the point, a keen bike owner would have paid at least £1000 to see less improvement than this using the conventional approach of exhaust/intake mods, ignition re-mapping etc.

Unquote:

We have proved this theory (drag, sprints and endurance) and have found gains of up to 5% more bhp when using a 5w-40 against a 10w-60. It's about viscous drag.

Cheers
SimonHi Simon, very interesting information and you’re quite right about the viscous drag and possibly the oil additives, but what about the tighter manufacturing engine tolerances that have taken place over the last 15 years? As an example 0w-40 might be ok for a 2006 Volvo/Vauxhall/Ford engine but not so good for a 1994 850 T5 (UK climate conditions). I‘ve seen low viscous oils cause horrendous crankshaft bearing rumble, hydraulic valve actuation tapping and also seen the opposite effect of high viscous oils causing hydraulic tappet seizure. What's your view on all this?

oilman
Friday 13th January 2006, 20:43
Hi Simon, very interesting information and you’re quite right about the viscous drag and possibly the oil additives, but what about the tighter manufacturing engine tolerances that have taken place over the last 15 years? As an example 0w-40 might be ok for a 2006 Volvo/Vauxhall/Ford engine but not so good for a 1994 850 T5 (UK climate conditions). I‘ve seen low viscous oils cause horrendous crankshaft bearing rumble, hydraulic valve actuation tapping and also seen the opposite effect of high viscous oils causing hydraulic tappet seizure. What's your view on all this?

If you'd said 1974 I might have agreed and certainly don't endorse the use of a 0w-20 except for qualifying and drag applications but there is nothing wrong with a decent 5w-40 synthetic,

Cheers
Simon

Engineer
Friday 13th January 2006, 21:30
If you'd said 1974 I might have agreed and certainly don't endorse the use of a 0w-20 except for qualifying and drag applications but there is nothing wrong with a decent 5w-40 synthetic,

Cheers
SimonI agree there is nothing wrong with decent 5w-40 synthetic oil but would you recommend it for all engines? The problems I mentioned were in fact on 1990-1999 high performance European and Japanese engines not pre-1975. High mileage engines would fair even worse I suspect if a low viscous oil were used? Your comments would be appreciated.

oilman
Friday 13th January 2006, 21:55
No I do not recommend it for all engines, there are a number of factors to take into account and age is one of them, also driving style, modifications and climate.

A stock '94 850 T5 requires an sae 40. Either 10w or 5w. The recommended quality at the time was CCMC G5. These specs have since been replaced with ACEA specs, the equivalent being A3 or A5 which are performance oils.

The notes on my database pertaining to this car say:

"CCMC G5 Superseded G3 (May 1989). Basically similar performance to G4 but covering super premium 5W-X and 10W-x fuel efficient grades. tighter controls on shear stability and volatility necessitates use of synthetic or other non-conventional "petroleum" base stocks."

On the basis that the "w" number is the cold crank viscosity or flow at cold, 5w is better than 10w with regards to engine wear when you turn the key. 10w-40 and 5w-40 are both sae 40's and therefore are both around 14cst viscosity at 100degC. At 0degC a 5w is around 800cst and a 10w 1000cst.

So long as the engine is in good shape, a 5w-40 will be fine.

Cheers
Simon

Engineer
Saturday 14th January 2006, 00:00
No I do not recommend it for all engines, there are a number of factors to take into account and age is one of them, also driving style, modifications and climate.

A stock '94 850 T5 requires an sae 40. Either 10w or 5w. The recommended quality at the time was CCMC G5. These specs have since been replaced with ACEA specs, the equivalent being A3 or A5 which are performance oils.

The notes on my database pertaining to this car say:

"CCMC G5 Superseded G3 (May 1989). Basically similar performance to G4 but covering super premium 5W-X and 10W-x fuel efficient grades. tighter controls on shear stability and volatility necessitates use of synthetic or other non-conventional "petroleum" base stocks."

On the basis that the "w" number is the cold crank viscosity or flow at cold, 5w is better than 10w with regards to engine wear when you turn the key. 10w-40 and 5w-40 are both sae 40's and therefore are both around 14cst viscosity at 100degC. At 0degC a 5w is around 800cst and a 10w 1000cst.

So long as the engine is in good shape, a 5w-40 will be fine.

Cheers
SimonThanks Simon for you knowledge and input regarding the subject of oils. Having posted chemical equations before regarding combustion etc, and copped :wtf: I will just say that I will continue to use ACEA A3 oils in my current turbo road car which are compatible with the ambient temps encountered in our climate, namely 10w/30 - 10w/40. Regarding other uses I will take your valid advice under consideration.

weasel
Saturday 14th January 2006, 13:30
i agree but out of curiosity, what does 'tighter controls on shear stability and volatility necessitates use of synthetic or other non-conventional "petroleum" base stocks."' mean? what are the differences between oils that meet the acea a3 performance standards? and i still want to know about the 18k service intervals on s60 t5, is the engine built to finer tolerances than a t5 motor of ten years ago?

oilman
Saturday 14th January 2006, 13:57
This should explain:

Basestock categories and descriptions

All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

Group I

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

Group II

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

Group III

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.
They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

Group IV

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

Group V

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.
The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Monday 16th January 2006, 01:20
but does the application 'require' group iv/v oils? magnatec has esters... what does the flash point say about the oil?

oilman
Monday 16th January 2006, 10:22
I'm not sure whether it is necessary. Group III or "hydrocracked" can be called synthetic and this is probably included however these are petroleum basestocks allbeit highly refined ones.

Magnatec has only a token ester content, the majority is conventional petroleum basestock.

I would tend to use this guidance as written by an eminent chemist.

Quote:

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.

We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.

Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?

Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!

They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.

But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

Unquote:


Cheers
Simon

siamblue
Monday 16th January 2006, 13:21
I'm not sure whether it is necessary. Group III or "hydrocracked" can be called synthetic and this is probably included however these are petroleum basestocks allbeit highly refined ones.

Magnatec has only a token ester content, the majority is conventional petroleum basestock.

I would tend to use this guidance as written by an eminent chemist.

Quote:

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils. The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.

We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.

Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?

Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!

They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.

But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

Unquote:


Cheers
Simon

Nice one Simon, thank you very much for all of that info,

Gary

weasel
Monday 16th January 2006, 13:55
magnatec has a token ester content that enables castrol to make quite specific claims about it. mobil would love to give them a kicking in the courts wouldn't they?

the conditions that jet engines operate under daily are far more extreme than anything a car engine might encounter: from say +40 C to -45 to -57 C in 30 minutes or so depending upon the type and these need to be warmed on descent.

what are the effects of a higher flash point and tbn?

NugentS
Tuesday 17th January 2006, 14:38
Simon (oilman) - are you one of the guys working for Silkolene. You write like a conversation I had a 4-5 years or so ago with one of the chemists when I was looking for an oil for my car (and have been buying Pro-S ever since much to my mechanics irritation as he has to buy it in specially for me)

I was impressed by the guys I was speaking to - not just their knowledge - but their willingness to talk on the phone to an obvious idiot

:-)

Sean

oilman
Tuesday 17th January 2006, 14:52
No I do not work for Silkolene, I own my own company.

I do know the guys at Silkolene very well as we have distributed their products for 12 years now. They are very knowledgeable and helpfull.

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Tuesday 17th January 2006, 23:33
b5254 has a design for 200k+ miles on ccmc g5.....

weasel
Wednesday 18th January 2006, 14:45
some might say that the uniform molecules actually make synthetic oils less able to retain contaminants in suspension which might lead to increased engine wear rates and excessive damage to components. such a set of circumstances might lead to *a major synthetic oil manufacturer* withdrawing one of it's products from the market and a regulatory body disallowing it's use..... in certain circumstances of course;-)

weasel
Thursday 19th January 2006, 13:33
soooo an executive from *a major synthetic oil manufacturer* is quoted somewhere as saying something along the lines of: no your car won't seize, but if you have a high performance car, do the odd track day and intend to keep it you'd be better using major synthetic oil brand 1.

sorry can't remember where or exact quote but like da man sez.... it won't sieze! :-D

weasel
Thursday 19th January 2006, 13:34
oooh i nearly forgot, what about bearing skate?

oilman
Thursday 19th January 2006, 13:48
Firstly the man is a chemist.

Secondly, here is his quote:

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.

But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

Unquote:

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Friday 20th January 2006, 21:57
i thought that might do the trick. you missed the 'it won't sieze bit'..... are you going to make an argument as to how are they better under 'ordinary' usage in uk climactic conditions?

oilman
Friday 20th January 2006, 22:31
I dont need to argue their case.

Both chemistry and real world testing have proven that they are "better" then their mineral cousins.

You only have to look at the way manufacturers are going, all new VAG engines only use synthetics.

CHeers

Simon.

hamish
Friday 20th January 2006, 23:49
Hi,
I'd look in the manual for any engine and see what that says, failing that I'd put the best oil I could find in it......and the last time I checked neither Halfords or Millers make a decent semi or fully synthetic !

Regards,
Hamish.

weasel
Saturday 21st January 2006, 13:29
'I dont need to argue their case.

Both chemistry and real world testing have proven that they are "better" then their mineral cousins.

You only have to look at the way manufacturers are going, all new VAG engines only use synthetics'

oh alright then simon you've convinced me..... now what warranty terms are you offering against failures? parts and labour? ;-)

hamish how do you decide what is the best oil available?

oilman
Saturday 21st January 2006, 14:04
I didn't know you got a warranty when you bought oil. Do Halfords and other motor factors give a warranty, I think not.

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Sunday 22nd January 2006, 00:05
simon don't you enough confidence in the products you sell to offer a warranty? :jaw:

oilman
Sunday 22nd January 2006, 00:40
I guess you'd need to speak to Castrol, Mobil, Fuchs, Silkolene, Motul and Amsoil about that.

When was the last time you got a warranty when you bought a can of oil?

LOL :)

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Sunday 22nd January 2006, 01:14
but synlube warranty their oil for very high mileages don't they? am i right in thinking that the silkolene pro s and r are ester based rather than pao oils? this would mean they're less likely to have a detrimental effect on seals wouldn't it? do you have data sheets for them? i'm curious about hths, vi, etc in comparison with magnatec, mobil 1, redline 10w40.

btw i've noticed a couple of folks saying opposite things about vi - one from aerohydraulics and one from autolubes: that the higher the number, the less affected by high temps and vice versa. what's your take?

oilman
Tuesday 24th January 2006, 00:25
but synlube warranty their oil for very high mileages don't they? am i right in thinking that the silkolene pro s and r are ester based rather than pao oils? this would mean they're less likely to have a detrimental effect on seals wouldn't it? do you have data sheets for them? i'm curious about hths, vi, etc in comparison with magnatec, mobil 1, redline 10w40.

btw i've noticed a couple of folks saying opposite things about vi - one from aerohydraulics and one from autolubes: that the higher the number, the less affected by high temps and vice versa. what's your take?

Pro S & R are ester/pao blends. Pao shrinks seals and ester swells them. However most pao based oils do not have this effect anymore due to compensation addatives. Yes I have data sheets:

Pro S 5w-40
HTHS 4.07
Noack 6%

Pro S 10w-50
HTHS 5.11
Noack 5%

Pro R 15w-50
HTHS 5.23
Noack 5%

I thnk you'll find these oils in the "top league" unlike Magantec.

VI - My take.

An oil's VI rating refers to its ability to maintain a consistent viscosity over a wide temperature range. The higher the VI, the better this ability.

One thing to keep in mind regarding VI numbers is that they only refer to an oil's ability to maintain consistent viscosity when new. They tell you nothing about how quickly the oil will lose this ability to maintain its viscosity over time.

The fact is, even if an oil has a VI of 180, it may only hold that VI rating for a couple thousand miles and this is extremely important!

This is where the HTHS number is important.

A rule of thumb is that Petroleum oils are much more likely to have declining viscosity indexes than synthetic oils. This is because synthetics require a far lower percentage of VI improvers to boost their VI numbers. VI improvers can break down very quickly. Hence, the less VI improver needed, the less likely an oil's VI will be affected over time.

Cheers
Simon

mraldonnelly
Tuesday 24th January 2006, 09:30
Simon,

Some interesting stuff you've posted over the course of this subject.

WHile on the subject of oil, do you know anything about this Slick 50 stuff and how it's supposed to help?

I've never used it but a couple of mates have and say that it reduced tappet noise in their cars and stuff. My philosophy is just to use a decent oil and change it frequently - that's got to be better than additives such as Slick 50.

Regards

Andy

oilman
Tuesday 24th January 2006, 10:14
To be blunt I am not a fan of magic addatives as I have seen too many chemical reports on them concluding that they are walllet emptying and a waste of time. Here are some comments to consider.

General Remarks on Chlorinated Additives.

A number of ‘add-on’ additives intended to improve the performance of commercially available automotive lubricants have been marketed in recent years, under such names as ‘Xxtralube ZX-1’, ‘Metol FX-1’, ‘PPL Anti-Friction’ and ‘Activ-8’.All such products share the following characteristics with ‘X-1R Friction Eliminator’:-

1)They all contain chlorinated paraffin ‘exteme pressure’(EP) compounds first used in the 1930s in heavily-loaded industrial gearboxes, and in some automotive transmission applications, mainly hypoid gears.

2)They all corrode copper-based alloys at moderate temperatures, easily exceeded in all engine, and most transmission applications.This problem was recognised in the 1930s, and chlorinated compounds were never used in transmissions with bronze bearings or gears. No responsible manufacturer ever suggested using them in engines where their increasing activity at high temperatures could lead to piston ring corrosion and bore glazing. (For the same reason, modern ‘hypoid’ additives are not used in engines, even though they are much safer than any chlorinated additive.)

3)X-1R Friction Eliminator and its clones are based upon very outdated technology, which was abandoned by responsible lubricant manufacturers for automotive transmission uses in the 1950s. Chlorinated compounds still find applications in metal working, but their use is on the decline because of health and safety considerations.

4)When burnt, chlorinated paraffins produce corrosive hydrochloric acid, and organo-chlorine compounds including the highly poisonous phosgene gas. Apart from these corrosion and health hazards, with petrol engines the deactivation of exhaust catalysts is also a problem.

5)Unfortunately, these additives give spectacular results in simple EP test machines such as the ‘Falex’. As a marketing ploy, a demonstration of this type looks impressive to those not aquainted with the above facts. Also attractive is the low cost of chlorinated compounds, allowing profits of several thousand percent to be made.

It is also worth asking why oil companies do not market such addatives if they are so good. Put simply a decent oil contains a well balanced blend of addatives that are the most suitable for your car.

Finally an internet search will reveal all the litigation that has taken place over the claims made by some of these products.

Cheers
Simon

mraldonnelly
Tuesday 24th January 2006, 13:24
Cheers Simon,

Useful info.

I think I'll stick with my usual quality oil and frequent changes rather than rip off additives.

Regards

Andy

pzorb
Sunday 29th January 2006, 17:46
Simon, as you now seem to be the adopted oil guru (whether you like it or not lol), may I ask a simple question?

On a high mileage 850 T5 (say 180k), that's kept in a state of tune, what would be the best oil for it?

Mine's very recently had mineral oil and now some seals are leaking. I want it out! Before its always had either semi or full synth.

And for reference once upon a time, Hamish described my Millers Oil XFS as "pissy" when it had been in only 3-4k.

I've got some castrol gtx which I bought in an emergency, but I'm concerened as to it's thinness.

Many thanks

oilman
Sunday 29th January 2006, 18:56
Simon, as you now seem to be the adopted oil guru (whether you like it or not lol), may I ask a simple question?

On a high mileage 850 T5 (say 180k), that's kept in a state of tune, what would be the best oil for it?

Mine's very recently had mineral oil and now some seals are leaking. I want it out! Before its always had either semi or full synth.

And for reference once upon a time, Hamish described my Millers Oil XFS as "pissy" when it had been in only 3-4k.

I've got some castrol gtx which I bought in an emergency, but I'm concerened as to it's thinness.

Many thanks

What do you mean by "state of tune"?

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Sunday 29th January 2006, 21:46
my new oil filler cap says 'volvo recommends castrol oil' ! ;-)

oilman
Sunday 29th January 2006, 21:49
Read: Volvo has a deal with Castrol and is paid to put the sticker on.

You can use any oil you like so long as it meets the correct specifications.

Cheers
Simon

weasel
Sunday 29th January 2006, 21:59
ha ha yes of course! was it honda or toyota that had a specific problem affecting bearings as a result of oil additives? ;-)

btw the silkolene looks good stuff, i'd buy it if i was using my car under the right conditions to warrant it. oh and if i wasn't absolutely convinced that it'll cause my seals to leak, which would cost hundreds to repair and you won't cough up to put it right;-)

pzorb
Sunday 29th January 2006, 23:18
What do you mean by "state of tune"?

Cheers
Simon

For arguments sake, say a 50bhp increase over stock.

oilman
Monday 30th January 2006, 09:46
For arguments sake, say a 50bhp increase over stock.

Sitck with a good 5w-40 full synthetic, if you go for an ester based one, the esters encourage seals to swell so if your oil is leaking from there, the esters should help reduce it.

Cheers

Simon.

pzorb
Monday 30th January 2006, 12:30
go for an ester based one

Am i right in thinking that castrol only has a 'token' amount, so is it suitable?

oilman
Monday 30th January 2006, 12:42
Am i right in thinking that castrol only has a 'token' amount, so is it suitable?

Yes, the Magnatec just has atoken amount in, a few % content.

You need at least 20% ester content for it to be good.

Cheers

Simon.

pzorb
Monday 30th January 2006, 15:01
You need at least 20% ester content

Thanks for that, what products satisfy that ratio, and where can I source them from?

Cheers!

oilman
Monday 30th January 2006, 15:07
Look at Silkolene, Motul, Redline.... you can get them from me!

Cheers

Simon.

pzorb
Monday 30th January 2006, 15:14
you can get them from me!

I thought you might say that :rotfl:
Got a website that takes orders?
I did a google on "oilman silkolene", you've been a busy fella!

SaffronC70
Monday 30th January 2006, 15:54
Owners hand book states "15w/40 or 20w/40 oils are recommended for use in extreme driving conditions that involve excessive oil consumption and high oil temperatures eg fast motorway driving. Note, however, the lower temperature limits"

Any comments on this Simon ?

Perhaps a 15w/40 fully synth oil would be better for us more demanding drivers ?

Regarding the lower limits, I don't think I'd be personally driving in -10 conditions !

Thanks

Chris

oilman
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 14:34
I thought you might say that :rotfl:
Got a website that takes orders?
I did a google on "oilman silkolene", you've been a busy fella!

http://www.opieoils.co.uk

oilman
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 14:38
Any comments on this Simon ? Yes indeed!


0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 15w-40 and 20w-40 are all the same thickness (14cst) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

With me so far?

Great!

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? It's true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)


0..........................................2579cst
20..........................................473cst
40..........................................135cst
60..........................................52.2cs t
100........................................ 14cst
120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is penty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it can't is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, it's all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC!

What are the parameters for our recommendations?

Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and that's not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

There is more but this post is too long already so lets keep it to basics.

Cheers
Simon

SaffronC70
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 14:45
Great, thanks for your time Simon !

weasel
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 15:21
'There is more but this post is too long already so lets keep it to basics.'
nope, simon the more you write the better, which also saves me going for world records in googling!

siamblue
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 16:57
Simon that is a cracking read, I am using 5w 40 in my car and was thinking of going over to 10w40 as i thought the 5 was a bit too thin, but as you have pointed out it is actually better for the car :)

Gary

Keep up the good input mate,

dicky b t5
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 19:10
Me V70R is going in for a oil change in the morning.....

And its going to get...10W 40 Semi Synth....so i'll see how it goes..

SaffronC70
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 19:29
:slap: :troutslap :dunce:

Right, I've been thinking about this far too much now and am still undecided . . .

Simon, the preferable oil grade for my 100k turbo engine is a decent fully synth, high ester content, reputable 5w-40.

This will provide as good as and beyond protection as a semi-synth 10w-40.

Correct ?

Thanks

:remybussi

weasel
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 19:37
recommended minimum spec hths for a porsche is exceeded by castrol gtx magnatec 10w40.... oh and the honda nsx recommended oil is..... not synthetic!:-))

SaffronC70
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 19:41
I was thinking of going back to good 'ole Magnatec, you read so much stuff on this internet, decisions become very complicated !

Next topic . . . what coolant should I go for ?! lol

weasel
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 19:49
lol that should be a separate thread!

lance
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 20:26
Im no expert , but I really rate magnatec 10-40 it doesnt use a drop between services and stays clean looking longer even though its still fairly clean when I change it after just 5k. Ive had my car 18 months and done 30k in her now showing 156k.
My previous 854T5 (winnie ) loved magnatec too!
My mrs 854T5 will be getting the magnatec treatment too on the next service ,hers only gets a 10k change, cos its stock and doesnt get treated quite as hard as mine (fnar fnar)

Engineer
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 20:29
Simon that is a cracking read, I am using 5w 40 in my car and was thinking of going over to 10w40 as i thought the 5 was a bit too thin, but as you have pointed out it is actually better for the car :)

Gary

Keep up the good input mate,Yup those tapping hydraulic tappets in your high mileage engine sound lovely in the morning lol......... :haha:

siamblue
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 20:37
Yup those tapping hydraulic tappets in your high mileage engine sound lovely in the morning lol......... :haha:

I didn't think the oil dropped off the tappets does it not coat them after standing still or is there full run off? :nutkick:

Gary

Engineer
Wednesday 1st February 2006, 21:51
I didn't think the oil dropped off the tappets does it not coat them after standing still or is there full run off? :nutkick:

GaryOnly pulling your leg lol, but as you ask its aeration of the oil in wide tolerances nothing to do with run off etc.

dicky b t5
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 00:55
Use what Volvo Recommend 10w-40...... I've heard some bad things about using fully Synth
oil......To thin & gets to hot......But thats only what i've been told..!!

I'm sure this will cause a few comments....lol..! :B_steerin
I said over a month ago 10w-40.......If it's good enough for Volvo, Its good enough for me.

This has been a really good reading Thread, But still no positive out come..!

I'm gonna stick with the 10-40....lol :B_thumb:

weasel
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 00:59
oh dear it's all going horribly wrong isn't it simon? why does the silkolene pro s say 'race' on the datasheet and on the can? :-)

SaffronC70
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 14:15
I said over a month ago 10w-40.......If it's good enough for Volvo, Its good enough for me.

This has been a really good reading Thread, But still no positive out come..!

I'm gonna stick with the 10-40....lol :B_thumb:

What if you use a fully synth 5w-40 - engineered to outperform 10w-40 ?

:thread: jokes !

Engineer
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 16:31
What if you use a fully synth 5w-40 - engineered to outperform 10w-40 ?

:thread: jokes !You don't engineer oil lol, you mix it that's why they call them that do, chemists lol

weasel
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 21:23
and pao's are made from..... waste oil and mineral shale!

BlackBeast
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 21:47
and pao's are made from..... waste oil and mineral shale!

Dude, just leave it go!

dicky b t5
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 22:27
Got me oil changed this morning, five odd litres of 10w 40 semi, New filter,
and with the car up on the ramp, checked all rubber bits, wheel bearings, exhaust, turbo return seals, suspension, basically the whole of the underneath of the R, he said everything was top notch and was very clean aswell...

Was in the garage for just over an hour.....£50 cash, all in...well pleased.
(but he is abit of a friend and also a V70 D5 owner..) :)

Mrsmopp
Thursday 2nd February 2006, 22:55
This thread is begining to degenerate and the decision has been made to lock this thread until further notice.