Does it get any more annoying.............

[jellison]

So my problem after doing all the things to my car (in the one year of owning) - see Jon's New V70R.

Quick summary as far as the engine is concerned (not general maintenance), had the Tim Williams head mod, had a fantastic 3" SS system built for it and had it tuned (my company have used many times).

So all that done and it is mapped for about 1.55 which should be about 350+bhp. Well with all the above done it was alot better but no where near what I was expecting (having had a similar remap from same place on my last T5). Bottom end fantastic, but from mid range and up it just goes completely flat (not at specific revs as gear / load / boost related), so after a month or too of this (and getting power numbers 294 /325 ft/lbs, at a set of rollers that I have used for ever (Dastek 4x4) guy running rollers on the 2 pulls it had said it feel like it is being backed down in some way from mid revs up), car now make about std power(!) and up a bit (20-25ft/lbs) on standard. So that is clearly not right!

Talked through with mapper and agreed to go back and log it under load (blast down M4 in high gears to see what it does when scanned), diagnosis it just goes flat once it gets to 1.1 bar boost, yet mapped for 1.55+.

So then take to a tuner local to me (Ford / Mazda (which obviously covers the 5 pot Volvo's as well (Fords ST / RS,etc). Now we are getting somewhere, diagnosis is that car is healthy enough but the MAP (not MAF) sensor reading (when read from the ecu return signal) is fine to 1.1 bar. Goes up with the increase in boost but when it gets to 1.1 bar the signal just drops to 0. Off the back of this signal drop, car thinks there is no boost at this point and back other things down (i.e. fuel, timing, etc).

Now the above is being read direct from the ecu not at the sensor (3 bar sensor, 1 bar for atmo then 2 more bar), so wiring all fine, so then gets a new Volvo map sensor, plugs into the socket but not the intercooler (instead plugs to mitivac and pulls pressure via this), so reading via scanner is from the ECU Map reading. Pressure put to the signal goes up and up and up but return from the ECU for this sensor drops at 1.1 bar (the pressure on the sensor is 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc, pressure is there so engine is giving the boost).

So conclusion (this tuner chatting to the mapper on phone explaining test), both agree that what else can be doing this that the ECU (the signal is being read from the ecu!). 32131

Tuner says get him a few of the same Bosch M7 ecu's (pn 0261208289 - these were in most Volvo's and a massive amount of other cars in the mid to late 2000's i.e. Volkswagen - so plenty about). Went down with 2 of these to be cloned with the Tune and the imo (immobiliser setting). On software that this the tune part goes across fine, but does not successfully finish the imo, so when plugged into the car nothing happens! So plug original back in.

Chap has done (in his words) hundreds of M7 over the year and clone many, so this was very strange. All we could think was two iffy ecu's but, normally they just do not work at all if anything wrong with them.

So stuck, car drive OK and has ok power but, it is not right. Tuners think it can only be the ecu. But open to other views. Can't pay 1100 quid for a new ecu from Volvo + 120 to put std map and imo on it and give it back to me to then take to have tune put back on it!!!

Have alot of other things going on in life obviously (so can't keep chucking money at this thing, have races cars that having proper mechanical engine restorations going on so this is a massive pain, but don't really want to just "live with it", but can keep spending). Car is an fantastic all round tool, but needs fixing for me to really like it 100% - does everything I need, bar give me that big extra shove that the 0.5 bar should equate to (alot).

Have I found the oddest issue with these or has anyone lever heard of similar?

Tuner has just said get him a few more M7's and he will try clone again (says he will know if the clone is fine and the copy will complete with final imo part say done can then post to me to put into the car.

But is it the ecu (above logic says it has to be), but could it be something else (not sure what from above and 2x tuners coming to same conclusion).

[LeeT5]

Interesting issue.

Thinking outside the box.....When the car pulls back and goes into 'Restricted performance' (not to be confused with 'Limp home mode') are you then only getting low boost pressure until next drive cycle?

If so, does the car store any fault codes?

[jellison]

Interesting issue.

Thinking outside the box.....When the car pulls back and goes into 'Restricted performance' (not to be confused with 'Limp home mode') are you then only getting low boost pressure until next drive cycle?

If so, does the car store any fault codes?Hi Lee, not logged on Vida as mine never did work (box never gets the blue light say usb socket seeing Vida hardware unit - all other lights work and AnthonyS0R's hardware works on my pc / Vida software no problem, so has to be the hardware unit - pissed (this sort of thing happens to me alot - (like this car) so not yet ordered another just for the head unit). I have the dyno chart somewhere. It looks ok, but like it feels when you get to the point that the cut in signal happens it still pushes forward but seemingly at a less intense rate.

Thing is the difference in boost it has before this happens over the max of std boost is only about 0.15 bar (so less than an extra 2.5psi over std), so it never really get into the meat of the extra boost it has dialed into the remap and would of course never show up ats std as just above the max std boost. So I have std power but more torque than std as the only happens from sort of mid revs and up (max torque being made lower down (should still be more than it is)). If I short shift in all gears and use the torque it is OK. It is still fast, but no where near what it should be. If you drove it back to back you would see what I mean straight away, pulls great to mid revs in all gears nut just goes flat from there.

Power curve is going up at one inclination till 3250 then after that just drop back to a much slower rate of climb right at that point (still going) and peaks at max power at just under 5900 revs then drops off.

It would be good to run it through Vida (have mailed AnthonyS60R but no reply yet). Got another ME7 yesterday (stockpiling them....).

Could you pm me with your email and tel no. and maybe we could chat about it, arrange to log it via your vida (double check on mine that it is the hardware unit) and I can send power plot.

Annoying to be piling the miles on the thing (constantly all over the place either towing of dropping / getting bits for racers, putting miles on it while less than it should be just feels I am robbing myself!

[Harvey]

I would say 100% datalog it on VIDA . Then run the numbers by one of the guys how know what it should be , They would be able to say what fields in VIDA to use when logging i think the max is 8 at anyone time.

[davebb]

So my problem after doing all the things to my car (in the one year of owning) - see Jon's New V70R.

Quick summary as far as the engine is concerned (not general maintenance), had the Tim Williams head mod, had a fantastic 3" SS system built for it and had it tuned (my company have used many times).

So all that done and it is mapped for about 1.55 which should be about 350+bhp. Well with all the above done it was alot better but no where near what I was expecting (having had a similar remap from same place on my last T5). Bottom end fantastic, but from mid range and up it just goes completely flat (not at specific revs as gear / load / boost related), so after a month or too of this (and getting power numbers 294 /325 ft/lbs, at a set of rollers that I have used for ever (Dastek 4x4) guy running rollers on the 2 pulls it had said it feel like it is being backed down in some way from mid revs up), car now make about std power(!) and up a bit (20-25ft/lbs) on standard. So that is clearly not right!

Talked through with mapper and agreed to go back and log it under load (blast down M4 in high gears to see what it does when scanned), diagnosis it just goes flat once it gets to 1.1 bar boost, yet mapped for 1.55+.

So then take to a tuner local to me (Ford / Mazda (which obviously covers the 5 pot Volvo's as well (Fords ST / RS,etc). Now we are getting somewhere, diagnosis is that car is healthy enough but the MAP (not MAF) sensor reading (when read from the ecu return signal) is fine to 1.1 bar. Goes up with the increase in boost but when it gets to 1.1 bar the signal just drops to 0. Off the back of this signal drop, car thinks there is no boost at this point and back other things down (i.e. fuel, timing, etc).

Now the above is being read direct from the ecu not at the sensor (3 bar sensor, 1 bar for atmo then 2 more bar), so wiring all fine, so then gets a new Volvo map sensor, plugs into the socket but not the intercooler (instead plugs to mitivac and pulls pressure via this), so reading via scanner is from the ECU Map reading. Pressure put to the signal goes up and up and up but return from the ECU for this sensor drops at 1.1 bar (the pressure on the sensor is 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 etc, pressure is there so engine is giving the boost).

So conclusion (this tuner chatting to the mapper on phone explaining test), both agree that what else can be doing this that the ECU (the signal is being read from the ecu!). 32131

Tuner says get him a few of the same Bosch M7 ecu's (pn 0261208289 - these were in most Volvo's and a massive amount of other cars in the mid to late 2000's i.e. Volkswagen - so plenty about). Went down with 2 of these to be cloned with the Tune and the imo (immobiliser setting). On software that this the tune part goes across fine, but does not successfully finish the imo, so when plugged into the car nothing happens! So plug original back in.

Chap has done (in his words) hundreds of M7 over the year and clone many, so this was very strange. All we could think was two iffy ecu's but, normally they just do not work at all if anything wrong with them.

So stuck, car drive OK and has ok power but, it is not right. Tuners think it can only be the ecu. But open to other views. Can't pay 1100 quid for a new ecu from Volvo + 120 to put std map and imo on it and give it back to me to then take to have tune put back on it!!!

Have alot of other things going on in life obviously (so can't keep chucking money at this thing, have races cars that having proper mechanical engine restorations going on so this is a massive pain, but don't really want to just "live with it", but can keep spending). Car is an fantastic all round tool, but needs fixing for me to really like it 100% - does everything I need, bar give me that big extra shove that the 0.5 bar should equate to (alot).

Have I found the oddest issue with these or has anyone lever heard of similar?

Tuner has just said get him a few more M7's and he will try clone again (says he will know if the clone is fine and the copy will complete with final imo part say done can then post to me to put into the car.

But is it the ecu (above logic says it has to be), but could it be something else (not sure what from above and 2x tuners coming to same conclusion).

Hi when the tuner is trying to clone the ME7 ecu, he needs to copy the eeprom as well as the flash rom,
also can you find out what he set the, SVBL (single value boost limiter) to in the remap,
and what are the values that are in the ECU, MAP linearization as if that is corrupt /not correct for the 3bar map sensor,
What programmer is he using to read/write the imo eeprom, as some do not work correctly for this st95p08 eeprom if he is trying to ,in circuit programming, (with out removing the ic)
please let me know ,Thanks Dave

[davebb]

Hi Lee, not logged on Vida as mine never did work (box never gets the blue light say usb socket seeing Vida hardware unit - all other lights work and AnthonyS0R's hardware works on my pc / Vida software no problem, so has to be the hardware unit - pissed (this sort of thing happens to me alot - (like this car) so not yet ordered another just for the head unit). I have the dyno chart somewhere. It looks ok, but like it feels when you get to the point that the cut in signal happens it still pushes forward but seemingly at a less intense rate.

Thing is the difference in boost it has before this happens over the max of std boost is only about 0.15 bar (so less than an extra 2.5psi over std), so it never really get into the meat of the extra boost it has dialed into the remap and would of course never show up ats std as just above the max std boost. So I have std power but more torque than std as the only happens from sort of mid revs and up (max torque being made lower down (should still be more than it is)). If I short shift in all gears and use the torque it is OK. It is still fast, but no where near what it should be. If you drove it back to back you would see what I mean straight away, pulls great to mid revs in all gears nut just goes flat from there.

Power curve is going up at one inclination till 3250 then after that just drop back to a much slower rate of climb right at that point (still going) and peaks at max power at just under 5900 revs then drops off.

It would be good to run it through Vida (have mailed AnthonyS60R but no reply yet). Got another ME7 yesterday (stockpiling them....).

Could you pm me with your email and tel no. and maybe we could chat about it, arrange to log it via your vida (double check on mine that it is the hardware unit) and I can send power plot.

Annoying to be piling the miles on the thing (constantly all over the place either towing of dropping / getting bits for racers, putting miles on it while less than it should be just feels I am robbing myself!

Hi
were are you
I am in Emsworth Hampshire ,
I have vida and Delphi DS150 so plenty of software for logging
and a GQ-4X programmer and MPPS so can clone ECU,
I work in electronics,
I will be happy to help

also does your tuner make his own maps or does he use a map writing company
Thanks Dave

[davebb]

https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?13923-How-much-boost-does-the-V70R-S60R-run-stock

The mod on post 11 says ,official Volvo stuff says 1.1 (16 psi) max

so I would say that your tuner HAS MISSED THE SVBL , or the boost limit map, when doing the remap,
so you need to ask him what he has set this to, and to look at it again,

have you got the tuned flash rom file so you could send it to me, or you could post it on
http://www.ecuconnections.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2
and ask some one to look at it for you,
but I would say that you do not need to clone the ecu, but if you would like me to do it I can, but it is a clone, so if the tuner has missed a map, the clone will not fix it,
you need to get the tuner to sort it, also remaps can not go bad, it would be like this when the remap was done,

Thanks Dave

[davebb]

one more thing, I know that he tested the map sensor with a pump and a scanner,
did he also look at the voltage at the output of the sensor with a volt meter/ multimeter ,
as he was increasing the pressure so you know the sensor is good,
Dave

[jellison]

OK a lot to now catch up with here. How anyone sticks with this car is beyond me (last one never missed a beat in 16 years till it died).

One point at a time:-
HARVEY:-
These guys that know what things to log - Hello... any one what channels to log?

Davebb:-
Hi when the tuner is trying to clone the ME7 ecu, he needs to copy the eeprom as well as the flash rom,
also can you find out what he set the, SVBL (single value boost limiter) to in the remap,
and what are the values that are in the ECU, MAP linearization as if that is corrupt /not correct for the 3bar map sensor,
What programmer is he using to read/write the imo eeprom, as some do not work correctly for this st95p08 eeprom if he is trying to ,in circuit programming, (with out removing the ic)
please let me know ,Thanks Dave

I'll run this past him (2 tuners one, the Ford / Mazda specialist nr me was the one that did the test wit the mityvac on the 2 MAP sensors).

Emsworth not too far (but not just round the corner).

also does your tuner make his own maps or does he use a map writing company - no idea? Seems to other maps for any Turbo you can come up with.

Aha - with the 1.1 being top max boost number (I thing the Ford / Mazda tuner (off top of his head thought max was just under 1bar).

This could tie in with post map something odd is happening.

One more thing, I know that he tested the map sensor with a pump and a scanner,
did he also look at the voltage at the output of the sensor with a volt meter/ multimeter ,
as he was increasing the pressure so you know the sensor is good. Not sure.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll run above past the person that mapped it first.

[davebb]

`ok
let us know
Dave

[Gold 'N' Brown]

Jon, when I read your OP the other day the following were my thoughts at the time but I thought better to shut up and let others offer some actual useful tech advice first....

If you want a good chance of getting this sorted easily I'd probably bite the bullet and take it a little bit north to Shemtek, because on reputation alone I think it would be a safe bet. It's easy to assume that just because XYZ mapper can[I] tune one of these or works on similar (Ford RS) that it's going to be done properly. Unfortunately I think you might be one of the unlucky examples that proves the point that it can be safer to travel/spend more using a mapper who actually truly specialises in Volvos and has the reputation to back them up. Quite simply, when things like this go wrong it might be a 1 hour set back for someone who knows these inside and out whereas a less familiar mapper - no matter how good they are generically - could be totally befuddled for far longer.

The reason I've chosen to post this today is that the following has just popped up on my Facebox newsfeed, posted by Shemtek today:
[I]The owner of this V50 T5 came to see us initially because the car was under performing since previous hardware / software upgrades were carried out. The hardware checked out but the software did not , running constant knock retard because of a tuning error. We set about upgrading the turbocharger and exhaust system ( Flux Fabrication ) along with suspension upgrades from BC and Hardrace before custom mapping. The end result is a car which is very refined with progressive throttle mapping and effortless overtaking performance. We see and hear of a lot of mapping issues with Volvo/ford me9 cars. If you have one of these cars and are experiencing issues we’d be happy to discuss tuning options with you.

Other than that the only other thing I can say is that it sounds like your R actually does work reliably and it's only the frustration at not performing as it should that is bothering you. If the car is a constant annoyance now, why not just take it back to the stock map and either live with it like that or sell it like that?

[jellison]

I hear what you are saying gnr, but sown mapper this thread.

He is going to have for a whole day to get to the bottom of this.

If no joy will go as you say. I would not go back to std (gutless with extra weight of awd/drivetrain losses and less power than now,
I very rarely ever sell a car, just keep forever or till dies. Plus I have spent a shed load on this in last 12 months getting it how I want it, bar this last bit of the puzzle. Had one of mine 28 years now, could never sell it.

The R is reliable, bar good few niggles and pretty luxurious, still under 100k. Perfect tow car. But will be better once that 1/2 bar boost stays with it. Chap should know if the boost goes to what it has been mapped to in testing. If it still does the odd drop at 1.1 then I’ll do as you say.32135

[davebb]

let us know how it is , it should be ok in the end
when is he doing the car,
Thanks Dave

[jellison]

Having it for the day, two weeks from now.

[boycdon]

interested too see how this turns out..i have the exact same problem on a recently mapped v70 d5..pulls well below 2500 rpm then seems to flatten out and hold the power back above that...??..hope you get a result.

[davebb]

interested too see how this turns out..i have the exact same problem on a recently mapped v70 d5..pulls well below 2500 rpm then seems to flatten out and hold the power back above that...??..hope you get a result.

boycdon can you tell me about your remap, how was the car running before the remap, was it flat after 2500rpm ?
The D5 has a vnt turbo and these carbon up stopping the VNT from working correctly,
can you use a obd2 reader and let use know what the max boost pressure is,
also if there is a vacuum leak, engine mounts or pipe work, the vnt will not be controlled correctly, test the vnt actuator with a vacuum pump,
Dave

[davebb]

Having it for the day, two weeks from now.

any news
Thanks Dave

[boycdon]

boycdon can you tell me about your remap, how was the car running before the remap, was it flat after 2500rpm ?
The D5 has a vnt turbo and these carbon up stopping the VNT from working correctly,
can you use a obd2 reader and let use know what the max boost pressure is,
also if there is a vacuum leak, engine mounts or pipe work, the vnt will not be controlled correctly, test the vnt actuator with a vacuum pump,
Dave

hi sorry for the long delay in replying..(hectic at work)...i didnt notice anything abnormal before the remap...i have all new engine mounts and do88 intercooler recently fitted,i have also smoke tested the car and cannot detect any vacum leaks....oddly the car seems to have sorted itself out and at present is running fine ....it was as if there was a moment of hesitation and then the boost would still be there but not as strong :worried::confused:

[davebb]

Having it for the day, two weeks from now.

How is the Tuned R
Have you got it boosting correctly now?
Thanks Dave

[jellison]

Car was back to tuner. That diagnosed defo the ecu at fault, doing this odd cut at 1.1 bar, so makes lower gear partial throttle movement fairly jerky. Outside of that it is perfectly liveable with but then it should have 1.55 bar max now. Brought a 3rd replacement ecu down with me. First two would not take the tune side of the ECU map (let alone the IMO part), so they were deemed bad(!). But the latest did load up the tune part, but tuner then realised that these ME7 later P2 ecu's really do present a problem in cloning the IMO part.

On researching it, seems these require some extra £500 bit of software to copy the IMO over for these (and presumably other hard to clone ecu's). He is waiting on that being delivered and fingers X'd that will copy the engine tune map and IMO. If so I'll get it in the post and pop it in with the ECU tool.

For now, just not driving it that much (bar tow race cars about and for mountain bike).

So in answering some of the above, not a boost leak, rather an ecu glitch (that could have been with car from new). I guess the car had 270bhp if that when I got it.

Getting new Vida (as the hardware box never brought on the blue USB light when plugged into the car and the pc), this might not help the above, but useful to have.

If only it had a 4 Barrel Holley or Webbers on it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gold 'N' Brown]

John, have you bought the replacement Vida yet? PM me if not, I'm selling mine.

[davebb]

Hi I hope you get I sorted, but I don't know were he got £500 from, like I said before for the imo you can just copy the 8 pin eprom, I have a programmer that will do that and it cost £80 but you can get cheaper, but some of the cheaper ones can not copy and write without removing the eprom, maybe he only wants to do it using the obd port ,
Dave

[jellison]

Hi I hope you get I sorted, but I don't know were he got £500 from, like I said before for the imo you can just copy the 8 pin eprom, I have a programmer that will do that and it cost £80 but you can get cheaper, but some of the cheaper ones can not copy and write without removing the eprom, maybe he only wants to do it using the obd port ,
DaveHi Dave, we did discuss removing eprom and I think moving to another ecu, but we both felt that that could be a big no no as if anything goes wrong I then have a non-running car, so presume he mean this software allows it all to be done plug and play (obd port?).

Can be without the car (could not race for one an two I'd have to get a new ecu (with my imo setup from Volvo) just to then put the tune back on that! That would be best part of 1500 quid. If he ends up not getting anywhere with the new software I'll come back.

[davebb]

HI
with my programmer I can copy the eprom in circuit, it just some cheape ones do not have the power to do so and the voltage drops out,

Dave

[davebb]

Hi have you any news , did you get the car sorted,
Thanks Dave