S60R - Big Turbo

[kevinking2020]

I'm looking going down the big turbo route. I quite like CTB30VR (Cavalli Turbo) but I think it's too expensive.

Looking at ATP Turbo website i come across GT3082R (aka GT3040R) - http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-032&Category_Code=GRT which would work out cheaper getting Cavalli Turbo and it included new T3 manifold with external wastegate, 38mm Wastegate etc... But then thought the turbo probably won't fit near the angle gear and would have to change my downpipe etc...

Seen people going down the TD05 route but want do people think about TD06?

I've come across a TD06H 25G which has the same housing so will bolt straight onto downpipe by the looks of it. It's not too bad on price either.

Ebay Link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130676415373?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt212/kevinking2020/Volvo%20S60R/_57_zpsku20jeal.jpg (http://s613.photobucket.com/user/kevinking2020/media/Volvo%20S60R/_57_zpsku20jeal.jpg.html)

[Santa]

I'd be interested in the results but have no information to offer on this fitment. (Other than firewall clearance and spool up times).

[kevinking2020]

yeah would be interested to see what it will make.

I might just go ahead and get it.

Will be the first S60R with TD06

[jamesy12345]

There's a chap here talking about a 20G..

http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/170415-dougys-2006-s60r-23l-20g-dyno-hilton-tuned-401-awdhp-410-aw-torque/

As above might be worth checking will it physically fit in the space you have available

[kevinking2020]

There's a chap here talking about a 20G..

http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/170415-dougys-2006-s60r-23l-20g-dyno-hilton-tuned-401-awdhp-410-aw-torque/

As above might be worth checking will it physically fit in the space you have available

I've read most of Doug's threads. 400 at the wheels which is nice...

He's got the Hahn Super 20G - http://www.turbosystem.com/auto/Super%2020G%20Universal.htm

Which is only $599 not a bad price. But I'm sure they've discontinued the turbo even though it's still on there website. I've contacted them to see if there still selling it.

[Wobbly Dave]

If I had my time again I'd be looking at the BorgWarner EFR series as the packaging is very good and comes with a built-in BCS. Downside is they are not cheap.

[jamesy12345]

If I had my time again I'd be looking at the BorgWarner EFR series as the packaging is very good and comes with a built-in BCS. Downside is they are not cheap.

a few of the guys with RX-7s use those - for example EFR 7670 (big) single in place of standard small twin turbos

comparison with garret turbos...http://blog.perrinperformance.com/borg-warner-efr7670-turbo-exposed-and-tuned-part-2/

[Wobbly Dave]

EFR saves a bunch of work on recirc and BCS plumbing and it has a T3 turbine housing and 3" v-band so the packaging is excellent.

[Dream3r]

I've read most of Doug's threads. 400 at the wheels which is nice...

He's got the Hahn Super 20G - http://www.turbosystem.com/auto/Super%2020G%20Universal.htm

Which is only $599 not a bad price. But I'm sure they've discontinued the turbo even though it's still on there website. I've contacted them to see if there still selling it.

I have seen this car recently and it's got an external wastegate now due to boost creep, he's a lovely person, had a few beers with him and the 20G goes well indeed. Worth a chat with him, his top tip was PCV piping ID.

Re he cavalli, it's far from perfect but with the hardware right it's got a monstrous top end 450+ bhp @ like 1600 kg/r at 2 bar it revved an R past the 7k mark in 6th off the clock, must have been nearing 190 mph and was close to saturating an RS4 MAF!

If I did it again I'd probably go ext WG and garret though.

Re Doug, not knocking him at all but their HP is different and it's not 400@ the wheels as I've been it it lol, unless he's has a re-tune in the last few months, 330 maybe English Terms, it's not faster than my Stock B8 S4 for example.

Still fast enough for an R.

[kevinking2020]

I have seen this car recently and it's got an external wastegate now due to boost creep, he's a lovely person, had a few beers with him and the 20G goes well indeed. Worth a chat with him, his top tip was PCV piping ID.

Re he cavalli, it's far from perfect but with the hardware right it's got a monstrous top end 450+ bhp @ like 1600 kg/r at 2 bar it revved an R past the 7k mark in 6th off the clock, must have been nearing 190 mph and was close to saturating an RS4 MAF!

If I did it again I'd probably go ext WG and garret though.

Re Doug, not knocking him at all but their HP is different and it's not 400@ the wheels as I've been it it lol, unless he's has a re-tune in the last few months, 330 maybe English Terms, it's not faster than my Stock B8 S4 for example.

Still fast enough for an R.

Not too sure on the TD06 as it is a china turbo, I've heard good and bad reviews about kinugawa.

I do really like the cavalli turbo that it is just a drop in turbo and it's a triple ball bearing but I can't justified spending £1700+ just on a turbo.

I thought Dougy's was 401 AWHP

I want to be a little different and I think I'm going more towards a Holset HX35 :) there cheap to buy, make decent power and sound nice when spooling but big problem is the turbo housing, there massive...

I don't know if it's possible but i like the idea of doing a custom sidewinder manifold.

[mitchyboy01]

In my own experience and from what I've read online Kinugawa are excellent quality. I would buy another in a heartbeat if I were to go down the tuning route again.

I have used a Holset as well and researched them for quite a while. They are bomb proof. You just need to ensure you size the exhaust housing correctly or they can be laggy. They are also sensitive to oil flow and need a 19mm drain minimum.

[jamesy12345]

I really shouldn't have but spent a bit of time reading what are the possible options for an uprated turbo on the P2 R's, so thought I may as well add it to this thread rather than creating new...in order of cost apparent cost....

*K24/K26 hybrid - available from Autotech (http://atechmotor.com/volvo/s60/r/turbo-och-tillbehor/k24-26-billet-hybridturbo/) or possibly AET/other UK company who can build something up on request
*Hahn 20G - http://www.turbosystem.com/auto/Super%2020G%20Universal.htm 600 dollars...?
*Owens 19T - not sure if still available? Owens' site has been down last couple of days http://www.owendevelopments.co.uk/
*Cavalli - as Kevin mentions above seems a bit expensive & I guess it would be limited by TD04 hot side also?? https://www.cavalliturbo.com/CTB30VR

& as mentioned above there's Borg Warner EFR stuff, Garrett but I think of these as expensive options for both the turbos and the fabrication worked needed (probably true of the 20G also). So bugger that IMHO

[Ettienne]

I really shouldn't have but spent a bit of time reading what are the possible options for an uprated turbo on the P2 R's, so thought I may as well add it to this thread rather than creating new...in order of cost apparent cost....

*K24/K26 hybrid - available from Autotech (http://atechmotor.com/volvo/s60/r/turbo-och-tillbehor/k24-26-billet-hybridturbo/) or possibly AET/other UK company who can build something up on request
*Hahn 20G - http://www.turbosystem.com/auto/Super%2020G%20Universal.htm 600 dollars...?
*Owens 19T - not sure if still available? Owens' site has been down last couple of days http://www.owendevelopments.co.uk/
*Cavalli - as Kevin mentions above seems a bit expensive & I guess it would be limited by TD04 hot side also?? https://www.cavalliturbo.com/CTB30VR

& as mentioned above there's Borg Warner EFR stuff, Garrett but I think of these as expensive options for both the turbos and the fabrication worked needed (probably true of the 20G also). So bugger that IMHO

I have a friend in Sweden who works at the factory who swears by autotech, his daughters boyfriend has an autotech tuned s60 t5 stage 3/4 iirc.

[jamesy12345]

I have a friend in Sweden who works at the factory who swears by autotech, his daughters boyfriend has an autotech tuned s60 t5 stage 3/4 iirc.

From that Autotech link..."God för 500hk vid 1,5 bar på E85 med Volvo original grenrör"

My very dodgy maths says that if E85 is 15% unleaded & 85% ethanol, a 5% ethanol mix that we get in the UK will give about 14% less than that..425/430 hp sounds good to me..

[Ettienne]

Not sure how his is mapped just recommended them

[jamesy12345]

Not sure how his is mapped just recommended them

If I do keep the car I'm leaning towards Hilton I think for the mapping - although would prefer a few examples of happy customers hence my asking in the P2 remap thread. I like the idea of being about to upload the maps by myself & emailing logs etc as the car develops. On the dyno is probably not going to work for me as no bugger wants to travel up north & even if they did I'd probably be at work.

But that Autotech hybrid seems a good idea - a decent amount of power increase, no fab work AFAIK & not crazy money (..though I would check with UK companies to see if they have similar available, I'm sure a saw a post by Simon Deathrider about AET on this subject)

[stribo]

If I do keep the car I'm leaning towards Hilton I think for the mapping - although would prefer a few examples of happy customers hence my asking in the P2 remap thread. I like the idea of being about to upload the maps by myself & emailing logs etc as the car develops. On the dyno is probably not going to work for me as no bugger wants to travel up north & even if they did I'd probably be at work.

But that Autotech hybrid seems a good idea - a decent amount of power increase, no fab work AFAIK & not crazy money (..though I would check with UK companies to see if they have similar available, I'm sure a saw a post by Simon Deathrider about AET on this subject)

AFAIK, Hilton now own the maps that John Currie (Dream3r) developed, so Shem would be the man to speak to, as he uses them. ExternalError (Stewart's) T5 has been remapped by Shem using John's maps, and he's happy with it.

[Ettienne]

AFAIK, Hilton now own the maps that John Currie (Dream3r) developed, so Shem would be the man to speak to, as he uses them. ExternalError (Stewart's) T5 has been remapped by Shem using John's maps, and he's happy with it.

It's not quite as simple as that with the maps as Robert has developed off shoot software from the core maps I believe he and John jointly developed, such as anti lag, switchable maps and an eco map, which I believe can be mapped into the chassis settings, these features are available via Hilton, but Shem has used them when John was alive, I'm nit sure of the situation now, it is still quite possible Shem could install them for you.

However it's possible to install remotely via dice, similar to how the don MTE maps can be done.

I've looked into it as I have asked Robert about doing a mapping session on a Dyno.

[don kalmar union]

I really shouldn't have but spent a bit of time reading what are the possible options for an uprated turbo on the P2 R's, so thought I may as well add it to this thread rather than creating new...in order of cost apparent cost....

*K24/K26 hybrid - available from Autotech (http://atechmotor.com/volvo/s60/r/turbo-och-tillbehor/k24-26-billet-hybridturbo/) or possibly AET/other UK company who can build something up on request
*Hahn 20G - http://www.turbosystem.com/auto/Super%2020G%20Universal.htm 600 dollars...?
*Owens 19T - not sure if still available? Owens' site has been down last couple of days http://www.owendevelopments.co.uk/
*Cavalli - as Kevin mentions above seems a bit expensive & I guess it would be limited by TD04 hot side also?? https://www.cavalliturbo.com/CTB30VR

& as mentioned above there's Borg Warner EFR stuff, Garrett but I think of these as expensive options for both the turbos and the fabrication worked needed (probably true of the 20G also). So bugger that IMHO

The cost of a larger than standard turbo, its fittings and an exhaust system, plus the required larger injectors, in tank fuel pump, intercooler, oil cooler, water rad. and a myriad of other non standard parts, plus software calibrations derived from road and dyno work is going to be no small sum. Not to mention suspension improvements and an LSD, and a clutch and flywheel kit to cope, WI perhaps.... and not to forget the 2.5l block's inherent weakness and the need for different rods and pistons if you are aiming for the stars......

Do you have any target outputs in mind? or indeed a defined budget?

Don.

[jamesy12345]

AFAIK, Hilton now own the maps that John Currie (Dream3r) developed, so Shem would be the man to speak to, as he uses them. ExternalError (Stewart's) T5 has been remapped by Shem using John's maps, and he's happy with it.


It's not quite as simple as that with the maps as Robert has developed off shoot software from the core maps I believe he and John jointly developed, such as anti lag, switchable maps and an eco map, which I believe can be mapped into the chassis settings, these features are available via Hilton, but Shem has used them when John was alive, I'm nit sure of the situation now, it is still quite possible Shem could install them for you.

However it's possible to install remotely via dice, similar to how the don MTE maps can be done.

I've looked into it as I have asked Robert about doing a mapping session on a Dyno.

That's it chaps, John was behind at least some of the Hilton stuff so it would be fitting that Roberts work went onto the car. That said like I won't be saving up for a Cavalli turbo, which John seemed to be a supporter of.


The cost of a larger than standard turbo, its fittings and an exhaust system, plus the required larger injectors, in tank fuel pump, intercooler, oil cooler, water rad. and a myriad of other non standard parts, plus software calibrations derived from road and dyno work is going to be no small sum. Not to mention suspension improvements and an LSD, and a clutch and flywheel kit to cope, WI perhaps.... and not to forget the 2.5l block's inherent weakness and the need for different rods and pistons if you are aiming for the stars......

Do you have any target outputs in mind? or indeed a defined budget?

Don.

As ever my budget is as little as possible, Don :) I'm just a working guy who spends his spare money on a hobby, so over a short period the budget if you could call it that is just about non-existent. I was just trying to add to the discussion on which turbo is the 'best' choice for the R models - best in my eyes being the cheapest, most reliable, requires the least amount of fabrication to fit yet gives the most effect - near impossible I know but there you go.

For example, what was on the green monster, the Cavalli, seems not to be an option for me due to high cost without huge benefits...while the K24/K26 hybrid route seems worthy of further investigation. It's only my opinion though.

[Ric@rdo]

There is a tuner in Europe that does the same type of tunes like hilton. Know as "contrast" on Swedespeed.
https://urbastuning.wordpress.com/about/
I'm going to have my car tuned by him early next year. Should expect 370whp with my current mods.

[jamesy12345]

There is a tuner in Europe that does the same type of tunes like hilton. Know as "contrast" on Swedespeed.
https://urbastuning.wordpress.com/about/
I'm going to have my car tuned by him early next year. Should expect 370whp with my current mods.

Are you running a K24 fella, with the 11 blade compressor wheel mentioned in your sig? Do you know what boost pressure you will be running to get 370 at the wheels?

[Ric@rdo]

Yes I do. I bought the almost new k24 from expolicev70t5 and had it rebuilt/balanced with the 11 blade from ARD.
I think it will be around 22psi.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn237/zebarias/IMG_20161004_171644_zpsaizd1fmh.jpg

[jamesy12345]

Yes I do. I bought the almost new k24 from expolicev70t5 and had it rebuilt/balanced with the 11 blade from ARD.
I think it will be around 22psi.


thanks for the info sounds another good option, I'd be interested to hear how you get on

[Ric@rdo]

I know that he is tuning a S60R with a k24 hibrid with a 7+7 blade, bigger maf and injectors and already hit 1450kg/h.

[jamesy12345]

I know that he is tuning a S60R with a k24 hibrid with a 7+7 blade, bigger maf and injectors and already hit 1450kg/h.

I see Viva advertise 11-blade & 7+7 wheels...
http://www.vivaperformance.com/turbo-billet-hybrid-k24-compressor-wheels-volvo-s60r-v70r/

That flow rate is pretty big - in theory approaching 500 hp according to the link below (rule of thumb for converting flow rate to crank hp)
https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/mass_flow_rate

It would be nice to see a compressor map for these different blades...or even just a map for the K24 7400 would be a good start - I looked but didn't find one yet

[kevinking2020]

There is a tuner in Europe that does the same type of tunes like hilton. Know as "contrast" on Swedespeed.
https://urbastuning.wordpress.com/about/
I'm going to have my car tuned by him early next year. Should expect 370whp with my current mods.

I've heard good reviews about contrast maps and good prices.

[kevinking2020]

Saw this the other night Cavalli turbo died after two years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJbID-v5xYE

[kevinking2020]

Ard Tuning TD05 doesn't look that bad. Rated for 500BHP - http://www.ardideas.com/ARD-Tuning-TD05-20G_p_227.html

I want to go external wastegate, this sounds awesome -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYHuPVWuEc

[kevinking2020]

Running over 600bhp on standard engine -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAzov9IkhEQ :D

[Yosser]

I wouldn't give ard a single penny, but perhaps that's just me...

[don kalmar union]

Running over 600bhp on standard engine -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAzov9IkhEQ :D

500bhp on a STANDARD 'R' engine is just utter ££££.

Don.

[jamesy12345]

Saw this the other night Cavalli turbo died after two years...

Cavalli is a brand of Comp Turbos (or maybe vice versa), there's a bit more info about Comp on the net


Ard Tuning TD05 doesn't look that bad. Rated for 500BHP - http://www.ardideas.com/ARD-Tuning-TD05-20G_p_227.html...


I wouldn't give ard a single penny, but perhaps that's just me...

I wonder who does mapping for ARD now...!!

[don kalmar union]

The two owners of vehicles that bought and fitted cavali turbos here in the Uk, both now dead, had terminal problems with them.... however the mapping for them did not help in the least.....

Don.

[jamesy12345]

The two owners of vehicles that bought and fitted cavali turbos here in the Uk, both now dead, had terminal problems with them.... however the mapping for them did not help in the least.....

Don.

Yeah searching around, Comp don't seem to get particularly good reviews. Fair enough if they were cheap but the Cavalli is too hot for me

[Tim Williams]

One of the biggest problems (not the only one...) with the turbos that claim to reinvent the wheel are the very high back pressures. This causes excessively high EGTs, most don't seem bothered about this and think a stronger actuator will make it all fine. It won't, high back pressures cause a high amount of spent exhaust gas to be left in the cylinder on the induction stroke. This raises cylinder temps to dangerously high levels. If you look at the Cavelli turdbo with 0.8 Bar pumped into the actuator you still cannot pull the wastegate open! This and using a TD04 turbine housing caused the very high back pressures. Both UK cars fitted with the turbos suffered with EGTs so high that the housings turned grey. The resulting temps caused softening of the piston rings (as seen in the USA). One engine has done 30k and the other 50k. This causes PCV type symptoms and excessive lag. I ran and videoed one of the cars with the map for both cars and and it was slower than with a K24. Cavelli started saying it could run over 2 Bar, then 1.5 once all the piston rings failed and then down to 1.2Bar.

By all means if you want pub bragging rights change the wheels and claim a power increase but if you want it to be sustainable a bigger turbine housing than a K24 or TD04 one will be required.

If you want pub bragging rights and sustainable power buy a decent bigger turbo then you can have less lag and about 100BHP more plus a turbo and engine that will last.

[jamesy12345]

One of the biggest problems (not the only one...) with the turbos that claim to reinvent the wheel are the very high back pressures. This causes excessively high EGTs, most don't seem bothered about this and think a stronger actuator will make it all fine. It won't, high back pressures cause a high amount of spent exhaust gas to be left in the cylinder on the induction stroke. This raises cylinder temps to dangerously high levels. If you look at the Cavelli turdbo with 0.8 Bar pumped into the actuator you still cannot pull the wastegate open! This and using a TD04 turbine housing caused the very high back pressures. Both UK cars fitted with the turbos suffered with EGTs so high that the housings turned grey. The resulting temps caused softening of the piston rings (as seen in the USA). One engine has done 30k and the other 50k. This causes PCV type symptoms and excessive lag. I ran and videoed one of the cars with the map for both cars and and it was slower than with a K24. Cavelli started saying it could run over 2 Bar, then 1.5 once all the piston rings failed and then down to 1.2Bar.

By all means if you want pub bragging rights change the wheels and claim a power increase but if you want it to be sustainable a bigger turbine housing than a K24 or TD04 one will be required.

If you want pub bragging rights and sustainable power buy a decent bigger turbo then you can have less lag and about 100BHP more plus a turbo and engine that will last.

Very interesting that, I meant hot in terms of price mainly although I was aware that the Cavalli used a TD04 housing...I guess my green one is one of those cars, I will pass that info highlighted on to Shem in case any lasting damage has been done, although probably he is aware of it as he took the thing off for Dream3r & put a K24 back on.

Anyway that sort of experience confirms for me the Cavalli is not the way to go, & that big power* using a K24 based hybrid is either not going to happen or at least needs monitoring of EGTs.

*big power = up towards 400 hp IMHO, pretty boring by Youtube standards

//edit

another option for rich folk...IPD 4T4

https://www.ipdusa.com/uploads/images_products_slideshow/fullsize_26365.jpg
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/11144/124563-4t4-turbocharger

[Ric@rdo]

What about the new turbo from IPD? They claim higher hp with lower boost.

[Tim Williams]

I spoke to Shem at length about it when I had Daves car and he had yours before. The other damage was Johns cat failing and Daves spark plug melting but neither can 100% be put down to the turbo.

IPD say they have sold over 40 of the 4T4 turbos so it should be possible to find user feed back. I use an Owen Developments IHI GT30 and love it. For less power I would fit a new genuine 19T. When coupled to a slightly larger CC engine the Garrett delivers 100BHP more than a 19T and no more lag than a 19T on a 2.3.

[jamesy12345]

I spoke to Shem at length about it when I had Daves car and he had yours before. The other damage was Johns cat failing and Daves spark plug melting but neither can 100% be put down to the turbo.

IPD say they have sold over 40 of the 4T4 turbos so it should be possible to find user feed back. I use an Owen Developments IHI GT30 and love it. For less power I would fit a new genuine 19T. When coupled to a slightly larger CC engine the Garrett delivers 100BHP more than a 19T and no more lag than a 19T on a 2.3.

Cheers for the info Tim. That would maybe explain why the DP was changed out, I was wondering but didn't know enough about it at the time.

GT30 is a good starting point for some research...I better get reading
https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/plotting_data_on_compressor_map

//edit

so working my way through that link...some of the numbers are just estimated (sounds better than guessed)

Horsepower target = 475 hp...crazy arse number just for example purposes, roughly 400 at the wheels on an S60R according to everyone's favourite HP calculator (http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php)
Engine displacement = 2.5 litres
Max RPM = 7100 rpm
Ambient temp = 64 F or 18 C
Ambient pressure = 29.9 in hg or 14.7 psi
Volumetric efficiency = 0.9
Inlet air temperature = 100 F or 37.8 C
BSFC = 0.6
A/F ratio = 11 (conservative like :))
Airflow Wa upper value = 52.3 lb/min or 1425 kg/h
Manifold pressure required MAPreq = 37.6 psi
Compressor discharge pressure = 39.6 psi
Compressor inlet pressure = 13.7 psi
Pressure ratio = 2.9
Airflow Wa lower value = 29.4 lb/min or 802.6 kg/h (don't know where is peak torque so just selected value on surge line for this PR @4000 rpm)

Stick that on the provided map for a GT3076R, 76mm, 56 trim, 0.6 A/R...green line is along PR of 2.9, between upper & lower air flow values.

31220

Seems OK to my untrained eye? A more sensible HP target would drop the green line down a bit, so away from surge line?? Is this any use OP? :)

[ExternalError]

I went gt28 on mine with an aim of 400 bhp it's running alright but the map is a work in progress while Shem finds someone to continue development

[htomi]

Ard Tuning TD05 doesn't look that bad. Rated for 500BHP - http://www.ardideas.com/ARD-Tuning-TD05-20G_p_227.html

I want to go external wastegate, this sounds awesome -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYHuPVWuEc

Folks, this car in the video is on Hilton tune not on ARD.

[kevinking2020]

Yeah this is Hilton's stage 4 tune. Running over 600BHP on stock engine.

[Harvey]

Yeah this is Hilton's stage 4 tune. Running over 600BHP on stock engine.


I think you mean about to melt the engine...

[dougy]

I think you mean about to melt the engine...

the key is proper tuning and tubular exhaust ...he has that...me on the other hand , that's a great possibility running a stock exhaust manifold. :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjnoz0Zw7rM&lc=z13lgvng2zvvg5sq204cdr4i3uudtnsy2rc0k

[kevinking2020]

the key is proper tuning and tubular exhaust ...he has that...me on the other hand , that's a great possibility running a stock exhaust manifold. [emoji38]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjnoz0Zw7rM&lc=z13lgvng2zvvg5sq204cdr4i3uudtnsy2rc0k
Where did you get the gt35 from dougy?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[dougy]

Where did you get the gt35 from dougy?



ebay kevin, from someone in New-York that was going to put it on a civic but changed their mind...it was brand new and it came with genuine 44mm tial which was brand new as well and both came in original boxes.