Fires then dies

[oblark]

Just finished fitting the alternator that I got from jamest5r,

Went to fire her up and she fires then dies, if you stand on the throttle it make no difference it fires then dies.

For the second its running all the normal warning lights are on apart from the engine management light, the battery light goes off when the engine fires but comes back on when it stalls.

I doubt it's the alternator so I'm at a complete blank what the problem is.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Thanks Rob

[martin_r_smith]

Bad earth somewhere??

[The Flying Moose]

I assume it was running ok before the alternator change?

[Ettienne]

Sounds like when you have an incorrect ecu in

Couldn't be anything to do with flat battery and your custom ecu

[oblark]

I assume it was running ok before the alternator change?


Sounds like when you have an incorrect ecu in

Couldn't be anything to do with flat battery and your custom ecu

It ran Ok last Sunday apart from the fact the alternator wasn't charging the battery.

The starter turns the engine over at normal speed.

[kmb]

You're plenum chamber hasn't got a crack on the weld somewhere? Wonder if you have a coincidental problem rather than just the alternator?

[PNuT]

it also sounds like immobiliser or fuel pump....

[claymore]

You're plenum chamber hasn't got a crack on the weld somewhere? Wonder if you have a coincidental problem rather than just the alternator?

having a crack in the plenum won't stop it from running, it will actually just make it rev more, I would be looking at the ecu.

[t5 pete]

If it dies instantly and cleanly after firing ide be looking at spark issues as if it was fuel u would have thought it would run on just a little.
As colin has said ecu would be a port if call iirc have you fitted COP if not try swapping another ecu in

[MoleT-5R]

you haven't dislodged a boost hose possibly, sounds similar to what happen when our v70r awd popped its bottom ic hose off...just a though and I hope it's something simple Rob.

[oblark]

it also sounds like immobiliser or fuel pump....

I would have thought if it was the immobiliser or fuel pump it wouldn't have fired.

[Jamest5r]

Glad you got the alternator OK sounds like immobiliser to me

[oblark]

If it dies instantly and cleanly after firing ide be looking at spark issues as if it was fuel u would have thought it would run on just a little.
As colin has said ecu would be a port if call iirc have you fitted COP if not try swapping another ecu in

Yeah I'm running COP and only have the one ecu.

I've unpluged the ecu overnight to reset it and I'll have look at it tomorrow after work :)

[Jamest5r]

Can't you just flash another map onto it?

[Orca2]

My money is on the immobiliser, they do fire up then die ,

[oblark]

I've got a funny feeling the MAF sensor has gone south.

Had a simular fault shortly after buying the car 10 years ago and that was the MAF.

[PNuT]

My money is on the immobiliser, they do fire up then die ,

Yes, that is why I suggested both! Recently I have been stripping everything off my car I don't need & periodically check if it still starts & runs!

I was a little confused as to what I had done when it started & ran with my modded ecu & the immobiliser ecu was unplugged! I plugged the standard ecu to find out if it was the ecu & it showed these exact symptoms.... fire & die!

I then had most of the wiring loom out removing un necessary wires & just after I chopped all the immobiliser wires to the ignition ring & ecu I thought I would check & it showed the same symptoms as immobilised! I had a little moment & realised I had left the pink connector below the fuse box un plugged which runs down the drivers side powering the fuel pump! Plugged it back in & she fired straight away....

[960kg]

Just finished fitting the alternator that I got from jamest5r,

Went to fire her up and she fires then dies, if you stand on the throttle it make no difference it fires then dies.

For the second its running all the normal warning lights are on apart from the engine management light, the battery light goes off when the engine fires but comes back on when it stalls.

I doubt it's the alternator so I'm at a complete blank what the problem is.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Thanks Rob

Only trying to help as always....Lol........was this the spare alternator i gave James when i sold him my V70?

If it was it may be faulty as it came from a junk yard cheap and i was going to overhaul it......but didn`t.




It ran Ok last Sunday apart from the fact the alternator wasn't charging the battery.

The starter turns the engine over at normal speed.

Had similar on my Volvo S40, the alternator was kaput but my battery was not flat and although it turned over ok it would not run as the sensors etc take most of the leccy!


I would seriously try another alternator first if it has not been checked....

[PNuT]

I've got a funny feeling the MAF sensor has gone south.

Had a simular fault shortly after buying the car 10 years ago and that was the MAF.

Both my 4.3 & 4.4 t5's have ran without the maf connected.... easy check!

[oblark]

Both my 4.3 & 4.4 t5's have ran without the maf connected.... easy check!

My m4.4 has been heavily modified for COP and data logging.

To the point I can only read the fault codes when the engine is running.

[oblark]

Ecu has been unplugged for 24hrs, still fires and dies. Disconnected the maf and no different.

All the time it's firing and dying the lambda light stays on.

[PNuT]

I would try unplugging the immobilizer next & see if it acts any differently to how it is now.... they don't run for very long! almost so it gets to idle revs & dies immediately

Its always going to be tricky when you have various systems fitted! What would vol fcr read on your car? I never tried it on anything apart from the 4.3 ecu & I think most of my obd wiring has now gone anyway....

[oblark]

I would try unplugging the immobilizer next & see if it acts any differently to how it is now.... they don't run for very long! almost so it gets to idle revs & dies immediately

Its always going to be tricky when you have various systems fitted! What would vol fcr read on your car? I never tried it on anything apart from the 4.3 ecu & I think most of my obd wiring has now gone anyway....

I've done some more checks, I have 12v going to all 5 coil packs and a good spark, The fuel pump fuse is ok and I have fuel pressure, the injectors are pulsing. As all of the above check out ok I would hazard a guess the fault is not with the immobiliser.

I have vol-fcr but it will only read the fault codes when the engine is running.

[LeeT5]

For the record gents, an alternator whether faulty or not, won't cause the symptoms the OP has.

Was the battery disconnected whilst you changed the alternator? If so, then it's more than likely that your ecu has lost all its 'learned' settings and now can't start due to adaptation not complete.
It is possible that there may be too many fault codes preventing the car from starting. This has happened to me before on various makes and models.
If your 100% certain that you have have 12v and 5v present at the MAF, switching signal at the injectors, normal amp draw and 12v at the fuel pump fuse with fuel pressure in the rail, then the car should run.

Double check all your fuses before doing anything else as it's very easy to blow a 5 or 7.5amp ecu fuse.
If they are all ok then it will almost certainly be immobiliser related.

Have you tried locking the car....wait for the led to settle after about 30 seconds, then unlock and try to start the car.
DONT TOUCH THE THROTTLE ON CRANK!!

See what happens. It has to something simple.
Remember of course that you will induce faults and error codes if you unplug sensors whilst the ignition is on!

[oblark]

Was the battery disconnected whilst you changed the alternator? If so, then it's more than likely that your ecu has lost all its 'learned' settings and now can't start due to adaptation not complete. The battery was disconnected whilst the alternator was changed, when I moved the battery to the boot the battery was disconnected for well over a week, when reconnected it started with no problems
It is possible that there may be too many fault codes preventing the car from starting. This has happened to me before on various makes and models.
If your 100% certain that you have have 12v and 5v present at the MAF, switching signal at the injectors, normal amp draw and 12v at the fuel pump fuse with fuel pressure in the rail, then the car should run.

Double check all your fuses before doing anything else as it's very easy to blow a 5 or 7.5amp ecu fuse. I'll check all the fuses tomorrow.
If they are all ok then it will almost certainly be immobiliser related.

Have you tried locking the car....wait for the led to settle after about 30 seconds, then unlock and try to start the car.
DONT TOUCH THE THROTTLE ON CRANK!! The car can only be locked with the key as the remote fob stopped working years ago.

[PNuT]

I have vol-fcr but it will only read the fault codes when the engine is running.

even the non 4.4 stuff?

I would have assumed you would have been able to read the abs/immobilizer/cruise or whatever your car has?

do you still have an alarm fitted? the original 850 one?

[Doingitsideways]

Hmm...

Sorry to jump in, but does the dash LED do anything during any of this?

From reading all the above, I'm pretty convinced it's an immob problem.
I have spare fobs here, I could send you one to pair to the car to try if you like?

[claymore]

On 4.3 mapped ecu's, the immobilizer is disabled, my rear engine wont start on a standard ecu, does exactly the same as Robs, I have to use a mapped ecu in it

[oblark]

even the non 4.4 stuff?

I would have assumed you would have been able to read the abs/immobilizer/cruise or whatever your car has?

do you still have an alarm fitted? the original 850 one?

I'm running a M4.4 ecu, it still has the orginal alarm fitted but I don't have a key fob to arm the alarm.


Hmm...

Sorry to jump in, but does the dash LED do anything during any of this?

From reading all the above, I'm pretty convinced it's an immob problem.
I have spare fobs here, I could send you one to pair to the car to try if you like?

The dash LED does nothing,


On 4.3 mapped ecu's, the immobilizer is disabled, my rear engine wont start on a standard ecu, does exactly the same as Robs, I have to use a mapped ecu in it

I'm I right in thinking with the M4.4 software from VS the immobiliser is disabled ?

[Doingitsideways]

Well you'd be welcome to give one a whirl, just give us a shout.

[Dangerous Dave]

I'm I right in thinking with the M4.4 software from VS the immobiliser is disabled ?
Yep, the immobiliser is disabled in the VS hacked binary

Just a quick thought, have you tired reflashing the software to the ostrich? I remember reading about a problem from ages ago when someone with a TT had to reflash it as something had gone wrong somehow. And as TT uses the same hardware (ostrich) it may be duplicated?

[oblark]

Update - still fires & dies.

I was convinced the problem was the maf so I got a working maf & 2 key fobs from ettienne (Steve)
Fitted the maf - no change
checked all 35 fuse - no change
reflashed the ostrich - no change

Tried to code the fobs to the car, on the 5th turn of the ignition with the fob button pressed the led on the dash flashes for 10 seconds then goes out. Both of the fobs would code themselfs to the car - could this because the immobiliser is disabled in the ecu binary or I have a immobiliser fault.

Sparyed some WD40 in the ignition lock and wriggled the key when starting - no change
After spending the day trying to the car started I managed to flattern the battery.
I'm at a complete loss why it won't start, all I did was change the alternator.

[Doingitsideways]

On fifth flick of the ignition, the light flashes.
Should then stay lit for a second when the fob button is pressed.
Each fob to be used must be logged, one after the other before ignition off.
Then ignition off to save them I think.

Not sure, but I think that unless you turn the ignition off before the led stops flashing, the system disregards it and reverts to previous settings.

[stribo]

It does sound like an immobiliser problem, Rachel's V70 does the same thing occasionally, just needs locking and unlocking with the fob, and it's fine. Obviously you can't do this with no fob, and if your immobiliser is disabled anyway, then it's a moot point anyway. Does Steve's BSR code reader not bring up any codes? my generic code reader doesn't need the engine running to read the codes, just the ignition on. As I'm working in Romsey, I could always pop in, and plug it in for you to try.

[claymore]

My friend did have a similar fault with his alternator, it had a dead short in it, without looking back at your posts, have you disconnected the wiring from the alternator and tried it, I'm pretty sure that would have been the first thing you did.

[jimka]

Tried a new/working battery on it and checked the alternator's regulator? It may be causing your ECU to go nuts. Welcome to try my battery if you need to borrow a new one.

[PNuT]

My friend did have a similar fault with his alternator, it had a dead short in it, without looking back at your posts, have you disconnected the wiring from the alternator and tried it, I'm pretty sure that would have been the first thing you did.

I would assume the same! I probably would have just removed the belt first though!

assuming it has no immobiliser yet showing the same symptoms I would be suspecting an ecu fault! or something affecting the ecu after initial start up.....

I would also remove the alarm relay & jumper terminal 50E & 50F on the 210 side as the alarm relay can stop it running....

[RichT4]

Have you made sure all plugs to sensors haven't been knocked, and the little wire that plugs into the alternator is still in place?

[oblark]

It does sound like an immobiliser problem, Rachel's V70 does the same thing occasionally, just needs locking and unlocking with the fob, and it's fine. Obviously you can't do this with no fob, and if your immobiliser is disabled anyway, then it's a moot point anyway. Does Steve's BSR code reader not bring up any codes? my generic code reader doesn't need the engine running to read the codes, just the ignition on. As I'm working in Romsey, I could always pop in, and plug it in for you to try.

The hacked M4.4 software from VS will only allow the fault codes to accessed when the engine is running, its something to do with the baud rate.


My friend did have a similar fault with his alternator, it had a dead short in it, without looking back at your posts, have you disconnected the wiring from the alternator and tried it, I'm pretty sure that would have been the first thing you did.

Will try this today :)


Tried a new/working battery on it and checked the alternator's regulator? It may be causing your ECU to go nuts. Welcome to try my battery if you need to borrow a new one.

The battery is only a few months old.


I would assume the same! I probably would have just removed the belt first though!

assuming it has no immobiliser yet showing the same symptoms I would be suspecting an ecu fault! or something affecting the ecu after initial start up.....

I would also remove the alarm relay & jumper terminal 50E & 50F on the 210 side as the alarm relay can stop it running....

Will try this today aswell.

I've been thinking about why it won't start,

When it fires it revs to 1500 rpm then dies, if the throttle is depressed when the engine fires it make no difference.

To me it's got fuel and a spark as it firing,
But it won't run - to make it run the ecu needs to know the following,

Amount of air being drawn in.
Position of throttle butterfly.
Position of the crank & cam shafts.

As its firing you would think all of the above are working, I've changed the MAF for a working one. So today I'm going to start by trying Claymores & PNut ideas if they don't work I'm then going to changing over sensors to hopefully find the fault.

[Dangerous Dave]

Good luck :)

If it is the same map as the volvospeed one then I think you can enable pre start OBD2 so you can retrieve any codes. You need to connect via the OBD port and send a 'o' via a terminal emulator (like realterm)

Info at the bottom of the page here: http://m44.wikia.com/wiki/Data_logging

[PNuT]

The hacked M4.4 software from VS will only allow the fault codes to accessed when the engine is running, its something to do with the baud rate.



Will try this today :)



The battery is only a few months old.



Will try this today aswell.

I've been thinking about why it won't start,

When it fires it revs to 1500 rpm then dies, if the throttle is depressed when the engine fires it make no difference.

To me it's got fuel and a spark as it firing,
But it won't run - to make it run the ecu needs to know the following,

Amount of air being drawn in.
Position of throttle butterfly.
Position of the crank & cam shafts.

As its firing you would think all of the above are working, I've changed the MAF for a working one. So today I'm going to start by trying Claymores & PNut ideas if they don't work I'm then going to changing over sensors to hopefully find the fault.

A couple of other things I would check, or you may have checked already.... do you still have fuel pressure after it has stalled? or could it be the fuel pump is priming & then cutting out when the engine fires & dies?

are the injectors continuing to pulse as it dies?

do you have a spark still as it dies?

what do the plugs look like?

obviously some of that isn't easy to ascertain if you are working alone!

I suspect if it had crank/cam sensor issues it would not know when to fire in the first place!

I guess it may be worth checking the wiring to those sensors as they probably share the same plastic sheilding of the alternator wiring..... maybe you are knocking one of those sensors out when it starts?

[oblark]

And todays update.

Removed alarm relay and linked out 50E & 50F - no change
Removed alternator drive belt - no change

So the first sensor and the easyist to be changed was the cam sensor - no change
As the crank sensor is pain to get at I decided to have a look at the throttle switch.

Interesting ..........

On start up & idle the ecu needs to see 0.5V at CT (closed throttle) and I had 0.0V
At WOT the ecu needs to see 4.8V I had 0.0V
So it looked like the throttle switch is fubar'd I fitted one from a standard throttle body.
And guess what...... the £$%&er started

So the fault was a throttle switch which had gone open circuit.

Refitted the orginal cam sensor, MAF sensor and it started again.
Went for a drive and all was OK

James the alternator looks to be fine, it's kicking out a good 13.8 - 14.0 volts.

[MoleT-5R]

And todays update.

Removed alarm relay and linked out 50E & 50F - no change
Removed alternator drive belt - no change

So the first sensor and the easyist to be changed was the cam sensor - no change
As the crank sensor is pain to get at I decided to have a look at the throttle switch.

Interesting ..........

On start up & idle the ecu needs to see 0.5V at CT (closed throttle) and I had 0.0V
At WOT the ecu needs to see 4.8V I had 0.0V
So it looked like the throttle switch is fubar'd I fitted one from a standard throttle body.
And guess what...... the £$%&er started

So the fault was a throttle switch which had gone open circuit.

Refitted the orginal cam sensor, MAF sensor and it started again.
Went for a drive and all was OK

James the alternator looks to be fine, it's kicking out a good 13.8 - 14.0 volts.

glad you got it sorted Rob, not something that I would normally suspect, but one to bear in mind as these vehicles age further and are more likely to start chucking up these faults more often

[oblark]

glad you got it sorted Rob, not something that I would normally suspect, but one to bear in mind as these vehicles age further and are more likely to start chucking up these faults more often

If it didn't start it was going to get a Basil.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc&feature=player_detailpage

[PNuT]

glad its fixed!

Wonder what caused it? or just a bizarre coincidence?

[Jamest5r]

Happy days :)

[Dangerous Dave]

Nice one :)

Bit odd that it was fine before the alternator change. As PNuT says, wonder why it suddenly went fubar? Autopsy?

[oblark]

Nice one :)

Bit odd that it was fine before the alternator change. As PNuT says, wonder why it suddenly went fubar? Autopsy?

I had a fuel pump and a MAF fail just like that, one minute working then not.

When the fuel pump failed a few years ago I parked it up went to start after being left for 5 mins nothing.

[Dangerous Dave]

I had a fuel pump and a MAF fail just like that, one minute working then not.

When the fuel pump failed a few years ago I parked it up went to start after being left for 5 mins nothing.
Bloody cars LOL. Oh well fingers crossed it will be a lot less trouble for you now :)

[MoleT-5R]

I had a fuel pump and a MAF fail just like that, one minute working then not.

When the fuel pump failed a few years ago I parked it up went to start after being left for 5 mins nothing.

feel your pain, had this happen on the way to work a five in the morning, tried everything but had to abandon the car and returned 14 hrs later to find I could not get her to go and she was transported home for the second time in 8 years, not bad really that she failed to get me home twice in 8 years


If it didn't start it was going to get a Basil.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc&feature=player_detailpage


lol....you'd make a great Basil

[Doingitsideways]

Good to hear it's running again.
Don't you just love random, complete failures?!

Oh Dave, I love the new avatar gif!

[Dangerous Dave]

Oh Dave, I love the new avatar gif!
Cheers bud, was one I made ages ago. Was going to do another more elaborate one but never got round to it. I will eventually :) The sounds of each action went really well with it too.

[Doingitsideways]

Cheers bud, was one I made ages ago. Was going to do another more elaborate one but never got round to it. I will eventually :) The sounds of each action went really well with it too.

I think sound effects made by the mouth like the police academy bloke, but bad, would be ace!

[PNuT]

glad you got it sorted Rob, not something that I would normally suspect, but one to bear in mind as these vehicles age further and are more likely to start chucking up these faults more often

I was interested in the symptoms being very similar to the immobiliser for future issues so unplugged the throttle position sensor on my car & it started ran & brought on the EML so suspect it is more an issue with this particular set up....

In general I have found very few of the sensors on these will stop the car from running