850 T5 intermittent starting

[Sparkysparks]

Ok, after my warm welcome id like some help please so i can enjoy my volvo.

This is the story so far.
Intermittent starting, sometimes it'll crank for 1 second and start, sometimes it wont start for 20 tries.
I had it the other day where it would start after 5 seconds of cranking with the accelerator fully down.
Today it would start everytime but cranking ranged from 2 seconds to 40 seconds. Then i tried again 20 mins later and nothing atall.

I have tried a new Cranks Position switch, Im told its had a new dizzy and rotor.
The fuel pump is priming as it should so i think the relay and pump are fine.
I had noticed today that the main ignition relay above the fan had silicone around the bottom of it.
Also these are the wired going to it http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h472/sparkysparks1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150722_15_54_44_Pro_zpshiokvihw.jpg (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/sparkysparks1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150722_15_54_44_Pro_zpshiokvihw.jpg.html)
They are working as they should for now.
The relay however sometimes wouldnt switch, but even with the relay bridged the car wouldnt start.
When the relay does switch the ICV buzzes constantly aswell.
I get a really weak spark untill its running then its a full heavy spark.
Im getting 12v on ignition to the coil and injectors.

I also took the ignition barrel cap off to find nothing damaged.

I should add that when the car starts it runs spot on, wont stall or show any signs of a problem.

Am i right in thinking that my next check would be the cam sensor?
TIA
Mark

[Shinsplintz 101]

Those wires look proper ropey, certainly worth further investigation if as you say everything else is ok...and please remove that horrendous purple silicon from the engine bay unless you have the full leopard print interior to go with it & have a side line as a pimp :nono:

[jamesy12345]

Mark, it looks from the photo that the that the wiring is damaged in 2 places - near the multiplug and to the left of the photo a break in the insulation in one wire, plus what looks like heat damage on the others?? Are you saying you have fixed this now?

What year is it also, any chance of OBD checking?

///edit aa it's an M-reg according to your other posts

[Sparkysparks]

Shinsplintz it also has a cool dump valve haha.
Those wires are all brittle and nasty, ive not repaired them yet as it seems to be working ok. Its even damaged further down the line, all wires on this car have seemingly got hot and brittle and broken away somewhere. How hard is it to take the loom out?

M reg yes, Ive checked the codes, all I was getting was fuel pump, icv, coil, basically confirming things that I had unplugged. Nothing jumping out saying change me.

[Sparkysparks]

When I turn ignition on, should I be getting 12v at coil and injectors and 5v at crankshaft and camshaft sensors?
Mark

[Sparkysparks]

When cranking today it was giving 12v to the ignition coil, uninterrupted. So whatever controls the earthing of that is the issue here. Does anyone know what that may be?

[jamesy12345]

When cranking today it was giving 12v to the ignition coil, uninterrupted. So whatever controls the earthing of that is the issue here. Does anyone know what that may be?

could be the wiring fella according to this

http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/IgnitionSystemDiagnosis&Service.pdf

Not much help just confirming what you know

[Sparkysparks]

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h472/sparkysparks1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150901_18_34_47_Pro_zps8uwimmnt.jpg (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/sparkysparks1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150901_18_34_47_Pro_zps8uwimmnt.jpg.html)

This relay is causing my issues. Or whatever is controlling it.
That it crank voltage ac when running.

Does anyone have a known working spare that I could try?
Mark

[Sparkysparks]

New relay in, still no joy. I am rapidly losing patience with this issue.
Im going to try to tidy the wires, or at least eliminate them all together and make my own connections and see what happens.

[Sparkysparks]

I want to remove the relay all together for testing purposes.

[jamesy12345]

hope you get it sorted Mark, you are obviously handy since you did that engine swap, know any good auto electricians??

[Sparkysparks]

Thanks man. Im not handy with the electrics though. This is mostly new to me. It makes no real sense. I know of a guy but i think hes a plug and play type of man, i dont know how hed be at actual diagnosis haha.

[mike 850]

Is the idle control valve buzzing? If so the relay is doing its job. I had a big intermittent starting issue, went though everything from sensors, ecu to the loom turned out to be an earth issue on the points behind the inlet manifold. It would crank but not start but would bump start instantly, basically the draw from the starter stopped the signals to the coil etc. I can help with testing individual components as I went through literally everything

[Sparkysparks]

The ICV buzzes when the relay does connect but i do have to manually make the connection myself. Its when it makes its own connection that it will start.
I can manually make it but it will not hold or start..
Your help would be greatly appreciated Mike.
Ive seen that a dodgy starter can take too much, drawing power from other components.

[Harvey]

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h472/sparkysparks1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150901_18_34_47_Pro_zps8uwimmnt.jpg (http://s1111.photobucket.com/user/sparkysparks1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150901_18_34_47_Pro_zps8uwimmnt.jpg.html)

This relay is causing my issues. Or whatever is controlling it.
That it crank voltage ac when running.

Does anyone have a known working spare that I could try?
Mark

Why have you got the test meter on 200 volt A/C range to fault find ? ,put the meter to 20 volts on the D/C range.

[Sparkysparks]

Reading info around the web it told me to test crankshaft sensor on ac scale as its a pulse. It shows no reading atall on DC

[Harvey]

Reading info around the web it told me to test crankshaft sensor on ac scale as its a pulse. It shows no reading atall on DC

Sorry didn't see you were testing sensor through you were testing crank voltage at starter motor.

[Sparkysparks]

No probs, It cranks fine, I just dont know if its taking too much current, Something else i need to test

[mike 850]

I'll get my notes out tomorrow lol, then go through the sensors one by one, have you got a jump lead you can put on the earth then the other on the gearbox/ starter body? Just to check the earth

[Sparkysparks]

Excellent. I have a jump lead yes.

[mike 850]

Cool try that first let me know, make sure it's got a decent connection on the gearbox. You test the crank sensor with an ohmmeter, needs to be between 200-500, think they are usually 297. Camsensor gives a square wave of between 1-5v. Just to start with...

[Harvey]

Just looking you should be


Testing:
-unplug the harness going to the crankshaft located under the distributor cap (2 prong plug)
-a multimeter is required for this test
-set the ohm meter to the thousand increment setting
-put the test probes on the terminals inside the plug on the crankshaft sensor side
-the reading should be between 200-500ohms
-if the reading is not within the specified range, the sensor needs to be replaced

Matthews Volvos site.

To slow....

[Sparkysparks]

Ok, ill update this thread as and when. Thanks Mike.

[Sparkysparks]

Harvey, this was my first test. The resistance was towards the lower end of the scale so ive changed that for a brand new sensor.

[Sparkysparks]

Ok assuming all is good with the cam sensor, whats the next step, as i only get limited time with the car and id like to check as much as possible when i can.
Thanks.

[twr]

Have you tried the crankshaft sensor. If you need one i have a new one spare mate.

[mike 850]

Under what conditions does it start? or is it completely random, still possibly sounding like an earth issue. have you definitely got fuel at the rail? does it smell of fuel when you crank?

[mike 850]

Also if you can get it to start, wiggle those cables by the relay, and by the crank sensor, they could still be dodgy

[Sparkysparks]

Thanks twr, I have already put a new one on though, I tried that first.

The fuel pump is working as is the relay. I have 45psi at the rail after a prime.
I have also tried to wiggle the cables about when running and not to see if it helps.
It is completely random as far as I can tell. Although it has been useable, just not at the moment with damp weather.

[mike 850]

after its started does it stop and start fine immediately or is it still hit and miss?

[Sparkysparks]

After it starts it runs fine. It has cut out randomly once only. But then trying to start it again is hit and miss.
Sometimes it will start 10 times in a row and others it wont start ever. Sometimes it will start if cranked for up to 40 seconds, but its not a given formula. It really is intermittent.

[nottsgreent5]

Worth a mention i had a similar issue with a friends t5 a few years ago swapped the starter for another and never had a issue again i know its a stab in the dark but fixed that car

[Sparkysparks]

I have read that it might be a starter. How did you come to this conclusion?
To rule it out can I bump start it?

[mike 850]

Have you tried the earth yet? I believe tge draw from a bad earth will draw power from elsewhere

[Sparkysparks]

I tried putting the jump lead on the gearbox and negative and still nothing.

[Sparkysparks]

I have had a look at this today. Re wired the relay and nothing has changed.
What are the chances of the ecu wiping themselves?
There's a black orange wire from the relay that when earthed makes the connection for the relay. This wire goes straight to pin a41 on the ecu.

[mike 850]

Have you checked continuity on that wire?

[Sparkysparks]

Yep continuity between relay and ecu pin is fine

[mike 850]

Really odd, I remember on mine it all seemed to connect ok and all the ecu pins were fine but the draw of the starter wouldn't allow a start. I'm sure it must be something like that if it runs fine after its started, have you tried a different battery?

[Sparkysparks]

I would agree with you that the starter is the issue here but its still not connecting the relay before I crank it. Its pointing to the ECU I think.
Does anyone have a spare locally I could try?

[mike 850]

As in you dont hear the icv buzzing with the ignition on?

just double check this too:

http://www.davebarton.com/relay1323592diagram.jpg

[Sparkysparks]

No, this is the problem, sometimes it will connect the relay (ICV will buzz) and this will start. If I manually make this connection on the relay the ICV buzzes but it will not start still.

[mike 850]

ah ok, i think you can rule this relay out then? as if the icv is buzzing its getting its signal from the ecu and the relay is doing its job, can you have someone hold the icv while you crank on put a multimeter on it to see if the voltage dies when you crank?

[Sparkysparks]

Yes ive tried this relay and a spare on another 850 actually and they were fine. But my wiring is all back to being good now anyway.
I can check that next yes. What will that show though. Current draw from the starter? Its not firing the relay to begin with. Its got to be something controlling that relay

[mike 850]

exactly, thats the main injector relay so would definately cause a non start by testing if this is dropping during cranking will tell you the draw is too much so definately an earth/starter fault. if it doesn't drop the you need to go back to the cam and crank sensors and wiring.

Does it stink of fuel when it just cranks?

[mike 850]

https://www.volvoclub.org.uk/tech/service/850/BasicTesting.pdf

A handy link for testing the other bits if needed

[Sparkysparks]

Sorry mike im getting confused. If the problem is before cranking it cant be the starter. Unless the starter is taking too much current on just ignition.
The relay only works properly when i manually shut the contact or earth the orange black wire. But even then the car wont start.
It doesnt stink of fuel no. No leaks, pressure is fine at 45psi at the rail.
The cam sensor was showing normal resistance and the crank sensor is new. We have issue with the crank sensor showing 0.7 volts on ignition though.

[mike 850]

here is what I think is happening, please correct me though as I have a habit of misreading sometimes :)

if you have pressure at the rail the main fuel pump relay is working enough to start.
the cam and crank sensors appear to be with their ranges.

when you turn the ignition on the ICV buzzes evertime?
If it does he relay and ecu signal to the fuel injection circuit is working, which should mean everything for the injectors to fire is in place?

so if its not firing the injectors i think its the draw from a bad earth/ starter when cranking is effecting this and maybe other signals stopping the injectors etc, hence no fuel smell.

Thanks what i am thinking..

[Sparkysparks]

Almost.
When I turn on ignition, fuel pump primes every time. But the ICV wont buzz, unless I physically take the lid off the main ignition relay and push the contacts together.
If I turn on ignition and fuel pump primes, and the ICV miraculously buzzes, it will start no problem. But that hasn't happened for a few weeks now.
This is why I'm leaning towards the ECU not doing its job properly now.

[mike 850]

Right so it's not the starter then, it must have something to do with that circuit ! I would check the voltage coming from the ecu to the relay, I can check mine to tell you what it should be with ignition on, if yours is the same and the icv is not buzzing there must be a fault after this relay, at least it should rule out ecu problems

[Sparkysparks]

That would be fantastic. Its got to be before the relay though. Either that or its not getting earth from elsewhere.

[mike 850]

Cool, I'll register what voltage the signal wire kicks out tomorrow evening. You could also check to see if you have 12v on the wire From pin 87? That would be the next check I think

[Blackdog]

Do the 850s have the same immobiliser system as the X70s?

If so it could be as simple as the antenna around the ignition barrel failing.

[Sparkysparks]

It could be. I have wiggled the key in the barrel to see if that helps.
I also visually checked the barrel connector and it all seemed fine.

[Blackdog]

Take the key out turn it over and then try. Repeat a few times if necessary. We had two ring antennas fail on our V70. The symptoms were simular to what you are describing.

[Sparkysparks]

I dont think the key is coded on mine.

[Sparkysparks]

Ill try to get a picture of it

[Sparkysparks]

http://www.michaelhyde.com/assets/images/products/VOLVO-4-TRACK-KEY-2.jpg
Similar to that with volvo written on it.

[Blackdog]

Looks the same as our Ph1 V70s.

[Sparkysparks]

It would be lovely if thats the solution. Turn the key over. Somehow i dont think it will be though.

[Blackdog]

You may be surprised.

I think what it does is break the misread link between the key and the immobiliser as the key is removed from out of the antennas range and it is then reread as the key is reinserted.

If it does work it would point towards the antenna breaking down and needing replacing.

[mike 850]

is there a way on the 850 to temporarily disable the immobiliser?

[kmb]

I read somewhere on here that fuse removal disables the alarm (and central locking), but not sure if that has anything to do with immobiliser.

Think it was fuse 6 from some cloudy memory whilst reading old threads about remote fobs :lol:

[Sparkysparks]

Fuse 6 then 16 ive read. I shall try that aswell. Fingers crossed for the easiest fix in the world.

[Sparkysparks]

Ok. Progress. After going through the basic f test and finding that everything is wrong. I lost patience and beat up the ecu a little bit. Cleaned the contacts and tried to make sure I had a good connection.
Tried the key thing to no avail. Many many times.
Then I had a look under the fuse box and thought. I'll just make sure everything's down. Pressed the first one and the fuel pump fired up and the icv buzzed. Cranked ot and after about 10 seconds it fired up. Hooray!!
Let it warm up. Started it a few more times cranking time varying between 1 and 10 seconds. So something is still wrong. But its working now. Thank fudge for that.

[merc85]

There is a way by bridging to pins on the fuse board under the dash using a jumper wire but cant rember what terminals it was a long time ago i had all this.

Btw may be worth you temporarily running a new trigger wire directly from the trigger pin on the ecu to the ignition module on the coil. this will improve the strength of the signal and tell it when to through a spark. I have a lengthy thread on all of this on my car which was called Blacky.

In the end it was down to a incorrect flywheel which was fitted.

[Sparkysparks]

Ok, sounds good. An incorrect flywheel is a distinct possibility as its had an engine swap.

[merc85]

Ok, sounds good. An incorrect flywheel is a distinct possibility as its had an engine swap.

I made that mistake,
OBD1 850's have a different flywheel to OBD2

I believe OBD 1s have Holes recesed/drilled into the flywheel
Obd2 have Raised squared lugs on the flywheel.

To Try this out reverse the polarity on the crank sensor Ie turn it around and this should make it fire up 1st time.

There is a Volvo technical buliton on this. You may have to file the location lugs on the sensor plug for it to be connected to the socket.

29670

29671

[Sparkysparks]

Is this a permanent problem of starting with the wrong flywheel? As mine starts now. Is this an indicator that its got the correct one if it starts stall?

[merc85]

With the wrong flywheel fitted you will find the colder the weather gets the harder it will become to start, this is due to the signal wire voltage, as this gets less with the colder weather. (not sure why) but it did with mine.

I in the end did fit the correct flywheel as i wanted it done properly once id found out it was the issue.

[Sparkysparks]

Interesting. Is there any chance I can see through the crank sensor hole to see which one I have?

[merc85]

Yes buddy you may be able to using a led torch or similar

[Sparkysparks]

Ill have to give this a check when i get a minute. Its starting but still playing up cranking.

[Sparkysparks]

This guy knows his stuff! Reversed the sensor temporarily and it fired up after about 1 second cranking. Done this about 10 times. Swapping it about with consistent results. It starts straight away swapped round. So. It runs less than great though, does this mean that the flywheel is wrong. And is it advisable to drive it with it swapped. Is the overall problem that the sensor is not close enough to the flywheel. Can I reduce the gap and be happy?
Thanks
Mark

[kmb]

Very pleased to hear you're getting somewhere on solving this problem, looks like some good help above ;)

[Sparkysparks]

Yes, this is very good news.
Im considering putting a switch in for cold morning starts, as that really does seem to be the worst.

[merc85]

Sounds like you have a incorrect flywheel, Blacky ran fine with it switched round. is the sensor a new one? The correct course of action would be to fit the correct flywheel. Wish i could remeber where that tech bulltin was :/

[Sparkysparks]

The sensor is new. But I think I'm going to run a switch from behind the sensor. So a switch for cold starts. When I had started it with the sensor switched round it didn't like being revved and had a flat spot on the accelerator.

[PNuT]

There is a way by bridging to pins on the fuse board under the dash using a jumper wire but cant rember what terminals it was a long time ago i had all this.



That will bypass the alarm module, not the immobiliser....

I have searched long & hard of ways to bypass the immobiliser & it appears the only way of doing it is getting your ecu modified.....