M59 gearbox and viscous coupling. Experience?

[Theador]

My M56 gearbox just gave up. Lost 1st and 2nd, and 3 and reverse are rough and smelly although nicely selectable. As luck would have it, I've been offered an M59 with viscous doodaa.

I was originally saving my pennies for a Gripper Diff. Now my gearbox has packed up, the M59 seems like a good way to fix the more urgent need of having 5 useable gears; AND get some sort of improvement on traction in the corners.

I've never driven an FWD with viscous coupler, are they any good?


Also, can a gripper diff be fitted to an M59 box?

[T5frankie]

m59's give way better corner grip than an m56 but you will need the driveshaft to do with the box

[Theador]

Cheers. Yeah it should have all the bits to go with it.

Does the M59 viscous (viscose??) coupling work a bit like a Quaife dif?


m59's give way better corner grip than an m56 but you will need the driveshaft to do with the box

[jamesy12345]

AFAIK you can't fit a Quaife/Gripper to an M59, so if you get one then find you don't like it you'll need to go change box again.

My car is M59 with viscous diff and it is a bit overwhelmed by the torque I think, but not bad. Depends on what price it is cos they are not so common and people know it

The internals of the M59 could go in your knackered M56 though so not all bad (never tried it but that's what Yosser got done on mine)

//edit sorry vice versa - M56 internals went in my M59

[Theador]

I think if it just gives me a bit more traction in cornering, and a bit more control on hard acceleration, that should be fine. I've got the car somewhere around 300bhp at the mo and looking to go a bit higher, but not silly. I get loads of torque steer, if I can minimise that so I can enjoy the power and not fight the car the whole time, I'll be happy.

Saving up for the Gripper was really to allow for track days, but to be perfectly honest, I'll probably get to track the car once or twice a year max.

[MaxTS]

From my experience of an S70 2.5T 193 bhp auto to my current manual S70 R with the viscous coupling box as standard and around 280 bhp I have noticed the torque steer is massively reduced and traction is far far better even with a large increase in power and torque.

Now this could be down to other factors such as suspension, tires etc but there is a huge difference there.

[jamesy12345]

Personally I think the viscous diff would struggle with that kind of output & not quite give you what you're looking for...but if the M59 is cheap go for it, 'with' is better than 'without' can't argue with that

But if the seller is asking a few hundred quid say I would put the money towards a plate type

[MoleT-5R]

I think if it just gives me a bit more traction in cornering, and a bit more control on hard acceleration, that should be fine. I've got the car somewhere around 300bhp at the mo and looking to go a bit higher, but not silly. I get loads of torque steer, if I can minimise that so I can enjoy the power and not fight the car the whole time, I'll be happy.

Saving up for the Gripper was really to allow for track days, but to be perfectly honest, I'll probably get to track the car once or twice a year max.

It is possible to reduce the torque steer, by fitting a damper to the front end of the engine back to the o/s strut top, not done this myself, but I do know of 3 members on here that have and heard the results are a good reduction in torque steer and I will be adding one shortly to my olive T-5R, when I fit her with a new strut brace. Here's a pic of Neal's one courtesy of Wayne
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28620&d=1428868492

[MoleT-5R]

Personally I think the viscous diff would struggle with that kind of output & not quite give you what you're looking for...but if the M59 is cheap go for it, 'with' is better than 'without' can't argue with that

But if the seller is asking a few hundred quid say I would put the money towards a plate type

Ask Frankie about m59's and power, as he's probably smashed more the most people, they certainly don't like too much drag racing...:(

[claymore]

This is mine using a 855 tailgate damper.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u258/claymore2k/T-5R/20150423_104338.jpg (http://s170.photobucket.com/user/claymore2k/media/T-5R/20150423_104338.jpg.html)

[Theador]

I like the idea of that damper thing. If anyone fancies cutting an extra set of mounts when they're making theirs, I'll happily buy them with some earth pounds. What strut are you all using?

Clay, I like what you've done with the airbox. You using a 3" MAF?

[jamesy12345]

Ask Frankie about m59's and power, as he's probably smashed more the most people, they certainly don't like too much drag racing...:(

where is Frankie these days..? He's very quiet. See him late last year to drop some lights off and haven't noticed him much on the forum


I like the idea of that damper thing. If anyone fancies cutting an extra set of mounts when they're making theirs, I'll happily buy them with some earth pounds. What strut are you all using?

interested here also....my 480 turbo had one, as standard I think

[Tomcat]

May have an M59 for sale soon (if my new one ever arrives lol)

[claymore]

I like the idea of that damper thing. If anyone fancies cutting an extra set of mounts when they're making theirs, I'll happily buy them with some earth pounds. What strut are you all using?

Clay, I like what you've done with the airbox. You using a 3" MAF?

Just a standard maf.

[Jamest5r]

All depends what sort of power your going for both myself and Frankie have smashed m59's to pieces racing them.

[Theador]

I doubt I'll go that much higher than the 300bhp mark I'm at to be honest; maybe 310/315ish. I'm focussing on drivability now; not interested in drag racing.
Suspension is working well on the Eibachs and Bilstein B4's and APD IRB's
Engine has good power but it's a little bit unpredictable at the moment on an 18T 3"DP me7 Manifold etc. So it's going up to Shem to add Wideband fuelling, 4.4 ECU, bigger MAF and a play around with the tune.


...and then obviously an M59 gearbox for now to replace my knackered M56.




All depends what sort of power your going for both myself and Frankie have smashed m59's to pieces racing them.

[Jamest5r]

I doubt I'll go that much higher than the 300bhp mark I'm at to be honest; maybe 310/315ish. I'm focussing on drivability now; not interested in drag racing.
Suspension is working well on the Eibachs and Bilstein B4's and APD IRB's
Engine has good power but it's a little bit unpredictable at the moment on an 18T 3"DP me7 Manifold etc. So it's going up to Shem to add Wideband fuelling, 4.4 ECU, bigger MAF and a play around with the tune.


...and then obviously an M59 gearbox for now to replace my knackered M56.


It's the torque that kills them, can be easily done with hard road driving, if you have the funds then quaife/gripper is the only reliable way forward.

[jamesy12345]

..What strut are you all using?

Colin mentioned an 855 boot strut, alternative maybe would be the 400-series engine damper I mentioned

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/gallery/a1177889-480_damper.jpg

Reading upside down in this link (http://www.forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=57139&page=5) the part number is 447758

[Doingitsideways]

Colin mentioned an 855 boot strut, alternative maybe would be the 400-series engine damper I mentioned

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/gallery/a1177889-480_damper.jpg

Reading upside down in this link (http://www.forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=57139&page=5) the part number is 447758

Cheers J, I'll be needing one of these soon* when I bolt the T3 to the 460 and start winding up the boost.
May go for some sort of double affair as I don't think the original mounts will like that!


*By soon, I mean around the 12th of never.

[jamesy12345]

Cheers J, I'll be needing one of these soon* when I bolt the T3 to the 460 and start winding up the boost.
May go for some sort of double affair as I don't think the original mounts will like that!


*By soon, I mean around the 12th of never.

I'm going to ask Glasgow Jim if he's got one spare in the Shed of Maximum Density....

[Theador]

I'll see how I get on with the M59 box. I need a new gearbox one-way or the-other so may as well use what I had saved for the Gripper so far and get the M59. It is indeed a few hundred squids with the bits; but then I imagine an M56 gearbox alone is going to cost me around one of those hundred squidings.

If I don't like it, I can get a nice M56 and fit a Gripper at my leisure and then sell the M59 when ready to swap out.

[Doingitsideways]

@ Jamesy...

Lol, I can't believe that name stuck. I only said it taking the piss! :D

Ask if he has two then ;)

You back btw? Still need to figure out bobbing up to yours.

[jamesy12345]

I'll see how I get on with the M59 box. I need a new gearbox one-way or the-other so may as well use what I had saved for the Gripper so far and get the M59. It is indeed a few hundred squids with the bits; but then I imagine an M56 gearbox alone is going to cost me around one of those hundred squidings.

If I don't like it, I can get a nice M56 and fit a Gripper at my leisure and then sell the M59 when ready to swap out.

Sounds like you are paying over the top, mate, for something you will change out later. Secret squirrel or what who is hiding M59s and selling at top dollar I wonder :)


@ Jamesy...

Lol, I can't believe that name stuck. I only said it taking the piss! :D

Ask if he has two then ;)

You back btw? Still need to figure out bobbing up to yours.

no mate still 'ere!

[Doingitsideways]

That's cool.

Crazy busy at the moment anyway.

Giz a shout when you're back.

[jamesy12345]

That's cool.

Crazy busy at the moment anyway.

Giz a shout when you're back.

Will do fella. I can show you my new gay bike

For the OP, my opinion is to fix up the M56, stick a budget damper on the top mount & save the change for a Gripper...up to you of course there is no right way to do it, otherwise the world would be a pretty boring place! Just don't like to see people getting ripped off.

[Theador]

Cheers buddy. Will see what's up with the M56 when it's off. Maybe keep it and get a gripper fitted in time.


Will do fella. I can show you my new gay bike

For the OP, my opinion is to fix up the M56, stick a budget damper on the top mount & save the change for a Gripper...up to you of course there is no right way to do it, otherwise the world would be a pretty boring place! Just don't like to see people getting ripped off.

[Redbrick]

Had an M59 in the red brick (855R) and thinking back it was pretty good. Gripper in the M66 on the Fiddy (855 T5) is in a different league/planet/universe, it defies the laws of physics all be it until the tyres loose traction.

[Theador]

Hmmm, if I can get the money back later I guess not bad, otherwise you're right.

Reality is I'll probably stick with it.


Sounds like you are paying over the top, mate, for something you will change out later. Secret squirrel or what who is hiding M59s and selling at top dollar I wonder :)

[jamesy12345]

Hmmm, if I can get the money back later I guess not bad, otherwise you're right.

Reality is I'll probably stick with it.

yes unless you bust it :)...plus you will need a buyer to be ready with the cash. Outside of a relatively small circle of people the bits aren't worth a large amount. I could be wrong but whoever is selling it hasn't posted it on the forum cos people like me will say 'naah it's not worth that' :)

I just sold a complete manual S70R for a couple of hundred quid.....knock down price for forum members only of course.

Up to you mate I'm just a tightarse :)

[Yosser]

I had the M59 in Jamesy's car repaired using M56 internals bits & bobs. If I had the time over again I wouldn't have bothered - I'd have gone straight to M56 with Quaiffe or Gripper.

Do it once, do it right.

[Tomcat]

I'd have loved a gripper for mine but I've had to go for another M59 instead, maybe in the future..

[Theador]

Yeah them Gripper's ain't cheap!


I'd have loved a gripper for mine but I've had to go for another M59 instead, maybe in the future..

[jamesy12345]

...
Ask if he has two then ;)...

GJ has only one mate & he is sending it down free gratis due to my services to the 480 Club...so it felt a bit cheeky to ask for another...soz

Next mod on the R then! Very useful thread this has been

[Doingitsideways]

Nay worries.
A long way off needing one yet anyway.

[MoleT-5R]

GJ has only one mate & he is sending it down free gratis due to my services to the 480 Club...so it felt a bit cheeky to ask for another...soz

Next mod on the R then! Very useful thread this has been

and pretty much on topic, now that is unusual.......lol

[Theador]

Haha. And no bitching, moaning, flaming.

Should get this one pinned for 'best practice'

[MoleT-5R]

Haha. And no bitching, moaning, flaming.

Should get this one pinned for 'best practice'

damn we must all be a bit off colour this week....;)

[jamesy12345]

Haha. And no bitching, moaning, flaming.

Should get this one pinned for 'best practice'

Oh, forgot to say, if you do go for the M59 I’d be interested in the knackered M56 + o/s driveshaft :) got a curly wurly here & willing to part ex

:hidesbehi

[Theador]

Haha, I'll keep you posted. After this thread though I may well hang on to it and fix it up with a Gripper when I get the cash.


Oh, forgot to say, if you do go for the M59 I’d be interested in the knackered M56 + o/s driveshaft :) got a curly wurly here & willing to part ex

:hidesbehi

[jamesy12345]

Haha, I'll keep you posted. After this thread though I may well hang on to it and fix it up with a Gripper when I get the cash.

hehe good man...I'm saving for a Gripper type also..not cheap are they!! I'm not saying the viscous diff is crap it probably quite good for standard 250 hp, but for 300-odd I wouldn't be happy spending hundreds of quids on one

[Theador]

No they're not cheap at all! Don't seem to come up second hand too often either which I guess is reassuring in a way.

I wondered if it was worth joining one of the ford ST(d) forums and trying to get one from there, I imagine a Gripper for a focus ST would fit in a Volvo box?


hehe good man...I'm saving for a Gripper type also..not cheap are they!! I'm not saying the viscous diff is crap it probably quite good for standard 250 hp, but for 300-odd I wouldn't be happy spending hundreds of quids on one

[jamesy12345]

No they're not cheap at all! Don't seem to come up second hand too often either which I guess is reassuring in a way.

I wondered if it was worth joining one of the ford ST(d) forums and trying to get one from there, I imagine a Gripper for a focus ST would fit in a Volvo box?

Good thought, don;t know about that, but the part numbers are different on the Quaife website so I would check b4 buying

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/volvo-s40-t5-m56-gearbox-front-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/ford-focus-st225-m66-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential-1158

[Theador]

Ah yeah. I'm sure I remember someone saying they fit, but that a soft set up in a Volvo box would be a more race oriented setup in a focus box. I'll ask.


Good thought, don;t know about that, but the part numbers are different on the Quaife website so I would check b4 buying

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/volvo-s40-t5-m56-gearbox-front-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/ford-focus-st225-m66-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential-1158

[Jamest5r]

Then you need to start the gripper vs quaife debate, i went with the latter due to being fit and forget nothing to wear out and no serviceable items unlike gripper :)

[jamesy12345]

Then you need to start the gripper vs quaife debate, i went with the latter due to being fit and forget nothing to wear out and no serviceable items unlike gripper :)

I was just reading about that...

http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/16674-strange-goings-on-with-the-gripper-diff/

[claymore]

Quaife for me, well and M59 :)

[jamesy12345]

Quaife for me, well and M59 :)

You have real 4wd though..!

28712

[S70T5Chris]

I was just reading about that...

http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/16674-strange-goings-on-with-the-gripper-diff/

That thread is a quite out of date now. The newer version of the gripper is far more reliable than it was then, and with help from Tim Williams the newer design also has a fraction of the noise when manouvering slowly.

I opted for a Gripper in my 850, and it is quite remarkable. I had a Quaife for approx 6 years in my S70, and yes, it is absolutely silent in its operation. But the Gripper is quite a step up in terms of grip, cornering is something else!

[jamesy12345]

That thread is a quite out of date now. The newer version of the gripper is far more reliable than it was then, and with help from Tim Williams the newer design also has a fraction of the noise when manouvering slowly.

I opted for a Gripper in my 850, and it is quite remarkable. I had a Quaife for approx 6 years in my S70, and yes, it is absolutely silent in its operation. But the Gripper is quite a step up in terms of grip, cornering is something else!

Thanks for that, I'm sold, just need the money now....does anyone want to buy an M59 for 855 quid..

[Doingitsideways]

Thanks for that, I'm sold, just need the money now....does anyone want to buy an M59 for 855 quid..

Is that £855 or a whole 855?!

I can do the latter.

[jamesy12345]

Is that £855 or a whole 855?!

I can do the latter.

I'm not sure...we can ask if Don will take low mileage TDi's as payment for a diff...

http://kalmar-union.com/parts/volvo-850_s70_v70_c70-transmission/

[Doingitsideways]

Yeah.
Nearly 300k now.
Still qualifies, methinks ;)

[Redbrick]

I was just reading about that...

http://forums.t5d5.org/topic/16674-strange-goings-on-with-the-gripper-diff/

Yes that thread is a bit out of date now. It was removed sent back to Gripper re-built with the new updated plates and then fitted by Tim. It was on the car when I bought it and when removed was found to have no preload at all. Not sure if that was due to wear or poor fitting. As I have said it is now rather good, before a bit mehhh.

[Theador]

You have real 4wd though..!

28712

Nice Llamas.