2000 p2 V70 T5 not starting

[Dave_T5]

Hi, I have recently purchased a v70 t5 geartronic as a non runner, with the hope of getting it going once again.

It was apparently running fine, then after it was left for a few weeks it would no longer start. The battery was removed and recharged, but still no joy.

When I took ownership, the battery was dead, so replaced it with a charged one (and carrying out testing with charger/jump leads/booster pack connected).

The engine cranks, but will not fire. It seems to be cranking fine, no obvious lack of compression and cambelt ok. First thing I noticed was no EML on the dash with ignition on, and unable to read codes with a generic obd reader. This led me to check fuses and relays for ECM feeds (all ok) and also the earth points on both front wings (a bit grotty but good contact to ground, removed and cleaned anyway). After this the EML decided to light up with the ignition on, so tried starting again but still no luck. Read fault memory again, none logged/showing on the obd reader. Tried starting with easy start through the air filter housing, fired for a brief moment then died again. Fuel level was low, but above the 'red', so topped up with 10 litres anyway. However, by the time we got back from the petrol station, the EML decided to stop lighting up again!! This time, no amount of fiddling with the earth point or wiring loom had any effect.

Other checks carried out - fuel in fuel rail under pressure, so pump/relay ok.
Tried cleaning immobiliser antenna contacts, and also swapped over antenna (assumed working ok as when attempted to crank with antenna removed from the barrel, the engine didn't even turn over).
Spark plugs worn, but not wet, so assume fuel not being injected.
Tested ECM relay with 9 volt battery, clicking open/closed ok.

So, on to the wiring diagrams...
Chassis to battery earth ok.
Engine to chassis earth ok.
Permanent 12v to ECM OK.
Ignition switched 12v to ECM ok.
Both earth wires from ECM ok.
With ignition on, the ECM is earthing the relay FMA2 (ECM relay)
Has voltage on CAN wires in and out of ECM and also in and out of the TCM (2.4/2.6v, from experience this is about right, but don't have a scope to check pattern)

Beginning to suspect ECM at fault, so removed and took apart, found a very small amount of water ingress which had started to corrode around a chip on the board. Carefully cleaned, dried and refitted ECM, still no joy.

Just wandered if anyone else has had similar issues, or could spread some light on this before I send the ECM away for inspection/ repair.

I know these cars can suffer with ETMs and DIMs, could the lack of EML be a red herring?? Sorry for the long post, thought it best to list everything I had done so far...

Dave

[Dream3r]

I can clone a suitable replacement if you find a doner ECM, assuming the old one boots ok.

If it's had ingress then there could be a world of problems with it. CAN voltage is about right, there should be two pairs though?

Can you read the ECM codes with VIDA? If not it's toast/not booting/corrupt.

Also make sure the ECM is seated correctly.

[Dave_T5]

Hi, thanks

Yes, 2 pairs of CAN wires on both ECM & TCM.

The ecu is seated correctly, and all voltage readings were taken with the system plugged in and switched on.

I don't have access to VIDA, so far just using a multimeter and wiring diagrams.

Just wanted to check as much as possible before either getting the ECM checked out / repaired etc, or booking the car into a dealer / specialist.

Dave

[Ettienne]

My local breakers has a 2001-ish auto in (you'd have to confirm that) you could get lock set ecu etc? Or just ecu and have it reprogrammed,
Have you got vida?

Could he not just use a code reader?
I have both but it's a bit of a drive from me to you.

Harris car breakers emsworth

[Dream3r]

If someone near you has VIDA it will be pretty easy to see if the ECM is booting via the diagnostics tab. (It will not be litten)

[Harvey]

Strange ,wonder if someone jumped started it wrong (mixed the leads up).
Have you checked the main power fuses next to the battery ? Need to remove battery to get to them.

[Dave_T5]

Haven't checked the main fuses yet, assumed ok as I seem to have 12v everywhere I should have. Also, for a brief time I had the EML lighting up (Indicating the ECM booted up and communicating??).

Few more checks to do, then sounds like getting it checked with VIDA...

Only possible anomaly with readings was on the pin that earths the relay, there was approx 1 volt still present going into the ECM With the ignition on and relay engaged. (12v with ignition off and relay off). Wasn't sure if this was normal due to an earthing resistor in the ECM?

[Dave_T5]

I can clone a suitable replacement if you find a doner ECM, assuming the old one boots ok.

If it's had ingress then there could be a world of problems with it. CAN voltage is about right, there should be two pairs though?

Can you read the ECM codes with VIDA? If not it's toast/not booting/corrupt.

Also make sure the ECM is seated correctly.

If I go down this route, do I just need an ECM with the same part number?

[Dave_T5]

Other updates:

Still no further in finding anything definitive, so it looks like I'm going to need to either send the ECM away for testing and/or get a VIDA/Dice and have a go with that.

The other thing I've noticed is to do with the dash, the STC light stays on and the message 'stc service due' (not sure if just needs to be driven after battery being disconnected?). Also the transmission indicator seems a bit erratic, it doesn't always change display when changing gear, and in manual mode, it only displays 2+4. After about 5-10 seconds, it just changes to a dash (-) until the ignition is cycled. Just before i packed up for the day, another message popped up 'SRS - airbag service urgent', not too bothered at the moment, might be completely irrelevant, but thought i'd mention it.

ps - does anyone have any recommendations for ECU testing / repairs? Dream3r, do you offer testing, or just cloning?

[Dream3r]

Other updates:

Still no further in finding anything definitive, so it looks like I'm going to need to either send the ECM away for testing and/or get a VIDA/Dice and have a go with that.

The other thing I've noticed is to do with the dash, the STC light stays on and the message 'stc service due' (not sure if just needs to be driven after battery being disconnected?). Also the transmission indicator seems a bit erratic, it doesn't always change display when changing gear, and in manual mode, it only displays 2+4. After about 5-10 seconds, it just changes to a dash (-) until the ignition is cycled. Just before i packed up for the day, another message popped up 'SRS - airbag service urgent', not too bothered at the moment, might be completely irrelevant, but thought i'd mention it.

ps - does anyone have any recommendations for ECU testing / repairs? Dream3r, do you offer testing, or just cloning?

Testing I can do but earlier I gave you the easy way with vida, if someone near you has it?


If I go down this route, do I just need an ECM with the same part number?

Yes, just the same part number if it's a cloning job.

[Dave_T5]

Hopefully will be getting it read with VIDA in the next week or so, going to leave it until then.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

[Dream3r]

Once you get to the diagnostics tab if ECM is not litten up then it isn't booting/corrupt/not plugged in :) good luck.

[LeeT5]

Have you checked for 5v at the MAF?

[Dave_T5]

Have you checked for 5v at the MAF?

No, not yet. Primarily trying to communicate with ECM first before looking at specific items. Though when I initially started looking at it, I did try starting it with the MAF disconnected (no joy). Will probably have another look this weekend.

[LeeT5]

No, not yet. Primarily trying to communicate with ECM first before looking at specific items. Though when I initially started looking at it, I did try starting it with the MAF disconnected (no joy). Will probably have another look this weekend.

Just unplug the MAF and probe for 5v with the ignition on. This will tell you if the ECM is live and has power. It will cut your diagnosis time down a lot. If no 5v then double check ALL the fuses with ignition on. Those that are live should have 12v both sides of the fuse. Very quick and easy to check with a power probe. It would have been one of my first checks.

[pillapow]

Turn the engine over at the crank by hand with ignition on, listen for fuel being injected into chamber. If no fuel being injected, is it not the crank position sensor that controls this?

[LeeT5]

Turn the engine over at the crank by hand with ignition on, listen for fuel being injected into chamber. If no fuel being injected, is it not the crank position sensor that controls this?

As great as this may sound, have you actually tried doing this in person? It's almost impossible. You'll struggle like hell to turn the engine over with all the plugs in, let alone trying to listen to other stuff. You'll be too busy moaning, groaning and swearing trying to do whats been suggested. Sorry Pillapow but it's not how any good mechanic/technician would diagnose. :wink: Good idea but not practical.

[pillapow]

No, you take the plugs out!!

I've used this method a few times to ascertain if an injector is working.

Albeit not on a T5 engine, but its a good method! :)

[LeeT5]

No, you take the plugs out!!

I've used this method a few times to ascertain if an injector is working.

Albeit not on a T5 engine, but its a good method! :)

Ah, you didn't say that!

Surely it's quicker and easier to check for 12v and switching signal at the injector harness on crank using a multimeter and noid light and the check the resistance on the injector itself?

[Dave_T5]

Just unplug the MAF and probe for 5v with the ignition on. This will tell you if the ECM is live and has power. It will cut your diagnosis time down a lot. If no 5v then double check ALL the fuses with ignition on. Those that are live should have 12v both sides of the fuse. Very quick and easy to check with a power probe. It would have been one of my first checks.

I will give that a go when I next look at it, probably won't be until the weekend now though. I have checked all fuses in the drivers a-pillar and under-bonnet with a multimeter (both sides), and all ok.

[Dave_T5]

Turn the engine over at the crank by hand with ignition on, listen for fuel being injected into chamber. If no fuel being injected, is it not the crank position sensor that controls this?

It could be to do with the crank sensor, as i've said before, the lack of EML could be a red herring (and to be fair, i've been going down that route so far)

[LeeT5]

It could be to do with the crank sensor, as i've said before, the lack of EML could be a red herring (and to be fair, i've been going down that route so far)

Lack of EML with ignition 'ON' (engine 'OFF') normally means that the ECM is not powered up. It won't be a red herring but more likely the cause of your non start problem.
A faulty crankshaft sensor will not cause the EML to not light up.
You also said that your unable to read codes with a generic code reader. Can you elaborate on that? When you plug in the code reader, does it power up?
A lack of EML will normally mean that you cannot read codes from the EOBD port because there's no power to it. Having no power at the EOBD and no EML means your likely fault is a blown fuse, bad earth or faulty ECM (in that order).

Have you checked fuse 6 and 23 in the underbonnet fuse box? Ones a 5A the other is a 15A IIRC. Both should be live with ignition 'ON'. Other than that.....triple check ALL the fuses including the ones on the REM (Rear of the car).

Make sure the battery is fully charged. Have a battery charger connected all the time (at the battery). This will ensure stable voltage whilst carrying out diagnosis.
Some ECU's and modules are programmed to enter 'sleep mode' if the voltage drops below a preset amount. They 'awake' when the voltage is correct. Not sure if Volvo's do this but it's best to prevent it from happening in the first place, rather than pissing in the wind!

Basic rule of thumb when diagnosing a Non start:

1. Battery voltage above 12.5v
2. Plenty of fuel in the tank
3. Correct key - recognised by the car (no Immobiliser messages)
4. Using a Voltmeter and Ignition in pos.II, check for 12v and 5V at the MAF (this means ECU is powered up)
5. Check fuel pump fuse is 'live' (both sides) and Amp draw on crank is between 4-8amps. You can check for good fuel delivery at the rail. It should gush out not dribble!
6. Check for 12v at Injector harness (ignition 'ON')
7. Check for 'switching signal' at the Injector harness (during crank) - a switching pulse will confirm ECU powered up and crankshaft sensor is working.
8. Check for 12v, earth, 'switching signal' at the Coil harness (disconnected) - You will have a spark if all present (unless ALL your coils are open circuit - Very Unlikely)
9. Check throttle flap is not seized shut. (If this is stuck shut the car definately wont start - however, you will have EML 'ON' when ignition 'ON')
10. All fuses present and correct.

If you have ALL the above, then the car really should start. If not, then it's either severely flooded and bore washed with fuel OR there's something more serious wrong ie Timing belt jumped a tooth or mechanical failure. You could also have a faulty FPS. This will prevent the car from starting but won't give you the symptoms you have (just something to consider).

You must be methodical in your diagnosis, otherwise you'll keep treading on your toes.
If I've missed anything then I apologise. It's late and that's all off the top of my head.

Hope that helps :)

[Dave_T5]

LeeT5, thanks for your comprehensive guide. I am very much aware of a methodical approach to fault finding and have probably checked half of your list in roughly the same order (as much as I can do on my driveway in the odd hour here and there I get to spend on it!)

The obd reader powered up and scanned for faults, but didn't detect any, nor could it read any 'live' data. There is supply and earth to the diag socket, plus appears to be CAN communication to the ECM.

Will let you know how it goes when I next get a look

[LeeT5]

LeeT5, thanks for your comprehensive guide. I am very much aware of a methodical approach to fault finding and have probably checked half of your list in roughly the same order (as much as I can do on my driveway in the odd hour here and there I get to spend on it!)

The obd reader powered up and scanned for faults, but didn't detect any, nor could it read any 'live' data. There is supply and earth to the diag socket, plus appears to be CAN communication to the ECM.

Will let you know how it goes when I next get a look

Fair enough. :) Will be very interested to know what's wrong.

[Dave_T5]

Bit of an update...

Still waiting to get codes read with VIDA, but in the meantime i've checked a couple of other things.

Firstly, I can confirm there is a 12v and a 5v feed to the MAF sensor (also on the boost pressure sensor/intake temp sensor - whichever it is on the pipe under the inlet manifold)

Also tried checking for DTC's using the DIM. Pretty much every module has DTCs present, the only exceptions are:
TCM - just says 'checking'
ECM - says 'not checked'
DIM - says 'ready'
(See pictures)

28109

28110

28111


Will let you know how it goes when i've read the codes

[LeeT5]

Using the DIM to check codes is pointless and misleading.

[Dave_T5]

Using the DIM to check codes is pointless and misleading.

Yeah, i kind of got that impression after seeing them - no good unless you actually know what the codes are...

[Dave_T5]

Well I now have Vida/Dice, and have read the codes. As predicted, there is no communication possible with the ECM, with code CEM-1A62 (communication with ECM control module signal missing) stored.

28138

There were plenty of other faults before I cleared them down, many I suspect due to a flat battery, but will see if any return later when/if I get the car running.

28139

The description for this fault points to:
- No power supply to the engine control module (ECM) - Tested and OK
- Open-circuit in the ground lead to the engine control module (ECM) - Tested and OK
- Contact resistance in the terminals - Disconnected/cleaned/reconnected several times, should be OK
- Open-circuit in the wiring for the CAN high speed network to the engine control module (ECM) - Checked CAN voltage going in/out of ECM, TCM and CEM, all the same (2.4v + 2.6V), plus the CEM is communicating with the TCM and ETM which are either side of the ECM on the CAN network.
- The engine control module (ECM) is not intended for this car (for example a used control module with different software/hardware). - Possible but unlikely, so I am assuming the ECM is cooked / lost it's software somehow (especially as I know it has had water ingress, although dried out now).

[LeeT5]

Don't shoot me as I'm only asking, but when you checked all the fuses in the fuse boxes with the multimeter......you did have the ignition in pos.ll, didn't you?.....and the fuses that were live (12v) had 12v on both sides of the fuse? :hidesbehi

[Dave_T5]

I can clone a suitable replacement if you find a doner ECM, assuming the old one boots ok.

If it's had ingress then there could be a world of problems with it. CAN voltage is about right, there should be two pairs though?

Can you read the ECM codes with VIDA? If not it's toast/not booting/corrupt.

Also make sure the ECM is seated correctly.

So, it looks as if my ECM is not booting up (does not light up on Vida), what would you suggest is my best option?

If I was to send my ECM with another doner unit and you were unable to clone it, would you be able to make the doner unit virgin so it could be programmed by a Volvo dealer?

Cheers

[Dave_T5]

Don't shoot me as I'm only asking, but when you checked all the fuses in the fuse boxes with the multimeter......you did have the ignition in pos.ll, didn't you?.....and the fuses that were live (12v) had 12v on both sides of the fuse? :hidesbehi

No worries, i did check the voltage on both sides of every fuse in the under bonnet fuse box and the drivers side dash fuse box with the ignition on, all live (12v ish)

Edit: also worth noting that the ECM is at least earthing out relay FMA2, providing feeds to coils/injectors etc..

[Harvey]

One thing I do when testing power supply is to use a headlight bulb on the earth & live pins on a plug, as if testing with a test meter it's easy to get a ghost voltage present Eg voltage but no amps.
Just wonder if you got a ecu from a second car would vida come back with a not coded to the car fault or if the software would just not boot up like you have.

[Dave_T5]

One thing I do when testing power supply is to use a headlight bulb on the earth & live pins on a plug, as if testing with a test meter it's easy to get a ghost voltage present Eg voltage but no amps.
Just wonder if you got a ecu from a second car would vida come back with a not coded to the car fault or if the software would just not boot up like you have.

That's a good shout, and exactly the reason why it's important to test for voltage / volt drop with the system connected and switched on - open circuit (ie component disconnected) voltage readings are pretty meaningless.

As for the donor ECU, I may end up getting a 'used' one to send away for cloning or recoding, so will probably have a go at plugging it in before i send it away to see what happens...

[Dream3r]

So, it looks as if my ECM is not booting up (does not light up on Vida), what would you suggest is my best option?

If I was to send my ECM with another doner unit and you were unable to clone it, would you be able to make the doner unit virgin so it could be programmed by a Volvo dealer?

Cheers


Sorry been busy, yes both possible.

[Dave_T5]

Well, finally got hold of a spare ECM... Tried plugging it to see if it communicates - obviously it still doesn't start but it does at least bring the EML on with the ignition now, proving it is now communicating. Haven't bothered plugging it into Vida, next step is to send them off for cloning/programming etc.

Thanks for everyone's input so far, will let you know once it's running (fingers crossed)

[Dave_T5]

Well, Dream3r (ECM-tech) confirmed the old ECM was cooked (the water ingress had affected the immobiliser chip inside the unit, hence why it couldn't communicate), unfortunately this meant he couldn't get the immobiliser codes from my ECM to clone to the donor ECM.

So, he flashed the donor ECM (made 'virgin') for me, I refitted and got the car recovered to the local dealer who have reprogrammed it.

It now starts..... however it is running very rough sometimes and won't idle correctly (hunts). Also it won't rev up correctly, feels like it's misfiring. The tech who worked on the car seemed to believe it was the ETM causing this, which I probably agree with.

The good news is the engine sounds smooth, with no knocks or rattles, so now that i've towed it home (considered driving it, but knowing my luck it would give up on a busy junction or something!) the next mission is to remove and clean the throttle module.

[Harvey]

A result to get it running ,well done.

[Dream3r]

Well, Dream3r (ECM-tech) confirmed the old ECM was cooked (the water ingress had affected the immobiliser chip inside the unit, hence why it couldn't communicate), unfortunately this meant he couldn't get the immobiliser codes from my ECM to clone to the donor ECM.

So, he flashed the donor ECM (made 'virgin') for me, I refitted and got the car recovered to the local dealer who have reprogrammed it.

It now starts..... however it is running very rough sometimes and won't idle correctly (hunts). Also it won't rev up correctly, feels like it's misfiring. The tech who worked on the car seemed to believe it was the ETM causing this, which I probably agree with.

The good news is the engine sounds smooth, with no knocks or rattles, so now that i've towed it home (considered driving it, but knowing my luck it would give up on a busy junction or something!) the next mission is to remove and clean the throttle module.

Great news on it starting! If you want I can send you my software to re-read out the software Volvo flashed, it uses DiCE and takes about 10 mins. I can then compare to what was on the ECM before if you like, no charge. It intrigues me this and I would certainly like to see it resurrected.

[Dave_T5]

Great news on it starting! If you want I can send you my software to re-read out the software Volvo flashed, it uses DiCE and takes about 10 mins. I can then compare to what was on the ECM before if you like, no charge. It intrigues me this and I would certainly like to see it resurrected.

I removed and cleaned the throttle module yesterday morning, still no improvement. Went to read the codes (if any) and reset adaptions if possible with Vida, but my DiCE unit decided it didn't want to work - typical. Will try again soon, but had other things to be getting on with...

Would be good to do this if I can get my DiCE working, or get hold of another.

[Dream3r]

Check with the DiCE diagnostic software first, it might be a VIDA issue.

Also, check the USB<>DiCE lead.

[Dave_T5]

Check with the DiCE diagnostic software first, it might be a VIDA issue.

Also, check the USB<>DiCE lead.

Thanks, will give it a go, probably won't be until next weekend now though. When connected to the car, the DiCE firmware light was flashing green constantly. There was no light for the USB or car connections.

[Dream3r]

If you don't get the DiCE going I'd be happy to check over the ECU for you, just pay post.

I have seen a reload get the wrong software before, and I have a backup of your old one so if it's a software issue I can fix it, check the obvious first though.....

[Dave_T5]

Well I finally got round to having another look, checked for air leaks etc. I noticed that it seemed to run better with the MAF disconnected (although with a rough idle). So I bought one the cheap pattern air flow sensors from eBay (£25), fitted it yesterday and initially it ran even worse. So I cleared the fault codes and disconnected the battery for an hour or so, after reconnecting it started and ran perfectly!!! RESULT!

The car was then put in for its MOT test - passed with only 1 advisory (chip in windscreen), taxed and taken for a spin. Drove fine with no hesitation and no warning lights, so pretty happy! Treated it to a much needed wash and vac, so now looks loads better.

Next job is to give it a full service (inc cambelt - last done in 2006, 12k miles ago) and see how it goes. Thanks again for everybody's help, especially Dream3r for sorting out the ECM.

[silverhorse]

Happy days Dave!! Glad you are sorted. Start saving your pennies for a genuine Bosch or Piezo MAF though, don't think those cheapy MAFs last too long!

[Dave_T5]

Happy days Dave!! Glad you are sorted. Start saving your pennies for a genuine Bosch or Piezo MAF though, don't think those cheapy MAFs last too long!

I would expect as much, was more an exercise in diagnostics (haven't got round to sorting my DiCE out yet), at least it comes with a 1 year warranty, apparently.

[Dream3r]

Well I finally got round to having another look, checked for air leaks etc. I noticed that it seemed to run better with the MAF disconnected (although with a rough idle). So I bought one the cheap pattern air flow sensors from eBay (£25), fitted it yesterday and initially it ran even worse. So I cleared the fault codes and disconnected the battery for an hour or so, after reconnecting it started and ran perfectly!!! RESULT!

The car was then put in for its MOT test - passed with only 1 advisory (chip in windscreen), taxed and taken for a spin. Drove fine with no hesitation and no warning lights, so pretty happy! Treated it to a much needed wash and vac, so now looks loads better.

Next job is to give it a full service (inc cambelt - last done in 2006, 12k miles ago) and see how it goes. Thanks again for everybody's help, especially Dream3r for sorting out the ECM.

You're welcome mate. It's great to see one being resurrected, well done.