Magical gear Box

[wright_t5]

For those of you out there that know (of) me, I was selling my faithful T5, then it let me down badly (Bad Girl :mad: ), gearbox gave up, just stopped working on the way to VT :eek:

Anyways, I wos gonna sell her, don't like bad cars, have already bought another car as it happens... quite a bit different and as quick, if not quicker, but that's another story... :shifty:

After shelling out loads of dosh I had it fixed, and what a difference...

The changes are now soooo smooth, up and down the box, power delivery is sweet and precise, kick down works a treat, even when you push it now you hardly feel the change..... I am gob smacked, you would have not convinced me that it would have been this different, it appeared that after talking to the guy that pulled it apart that there was something wrong inside, a ball out of place, means nothing to me... it hadn't been apart before, so it had done 130,000 from new..... then I got it :eek:

Anyway, cut a long story short, she ain't for sale anymore, she is too good to leave, it's a pleasure again... and boy does it feel likes it goes now...

As for the other one... well Have to keep that too, it is sooo much fun.

[Mrsmopp]

LOL! Glad to hear she convinced you to keep her!!! :thewave: Remind us what the other car is????

x

[Wobbly Dave]

So did you ask what went wrong. Bet you 90% it was the sprag clutches?

I am glad you are hanging on to her.

Just out of interest - did you buy a new/recon box or have the existing one stripped/rebuilt? and how much did you pay?

[wright_t5]

HI out there, Thanks for the support, and just to continue with the info....

Me other car... Umm, different, but bags of fun... Nissan Pulsar.

As for the box, While I was waiting for me lift home I had a lot of time to phone around, prices varied, as high as £1500 + vat :eek:

Finally nailed to a bunch of guys over In St Neots, on me way home as it happens, they did the job complete, had me car, took the box out, re-con my box (Which I liked) put it back in, road-test (And they did, The fuel average was 17) and gave it back to me..... cost £1,000 + vat, they have been around for many years, I know them from old... workshop is full of old gearboxes, but they do a sterling job.... Oh, and they had an S70 box in there when I collected mine!!! that suffered water ingestion...

They said that mine probably suffered because of power braking!!!! and the extra load put on it by dragging her.... it's kinda like stalling the box as it's full throttle with little forward motion.... well at first :shifty:

Cheers

Martin.

[Mrsmopp]

Power braking rears its ugly head again!!

I take it you will still be joining us at the pod Wrighty?

x

[wright_t5]

Pod, me, if your there then the picture gets better.... :worship:

Course.... with me new toy too...

:thewave:

[Wobbly Dave]

Both of us have fallen foul of power braking.

Clearly the message is - don't do it.

[mulletboy2]

It's pretty easy to blame a gearbox dieing on using resistance braking.. I do often wonder how much of it is truth, how much is speculation, and how much is just because it's the easiest thing to blame it on...

I guess I should probably not do it though :)

[Kent Canary]

Brakes are for slowing, gears are for going..

[wright_t5]

Power braking, blaming gearbox, it's not a question of blame, more of an understanding of how things work, and the gearbox/auto thing ain't designed for sustained stalling, everything wears and heats up very quick causing untold damage, after talking to the guy, who works with these things every day, he convinced me that power braking is a definite no no, as Dave has repeated... best let the box do it's bit...

What we need is more speed later, "after" getting it rolling....

Blame, that's my fault for doing it... although apparently the volvo boxes are known for failing, as said before he had an S70 auto box(Same box) on the desk as I spoke to him!!!!

:thewave:

[Mrsmopp]

It's pretty easy to blame a gearbox dieing on using resistance braking.. I do often wonder how much of it is truth, how much is speculation, and how much is just because it's the easiest thing to blame it on...

I guess I should probably not do it though :)

You dont need to worry about it MB with your manual box :wink:

x

[mulletboy2]

You dont need to worry about it MB with your manual box :wink:

x
lol, that's good to know :D It's a bad habbit I've picked up and used for years.. can't say that I've ever had to have a gearbox rebuilt *scarpers to find some wood* because of it. I have often heard this explanation used with respect to manual boxes on other cars, and I'd just love to see one solid scrap of evidence supporting or disproving it :)

[Wobbly Dave]

I saw the damage that was caused to the plates in the clutch pack, when John Rawle (auto specialist) had dropped them out. Some had fused and some had had the teeth stripped/bent. The evidence was therefore a plain as the nose on my face - the damage was a direct result of putting too much heat/power through the sprag clutch - which can only have occured during power braking. Normal wear on the Aisin Warner box usually takes the end bearing with it and then the pack starts to wear into the housing. I saw this kind of long term damage/wear on the same AS-50-42 box out of a Saab. The damage in my box was much more dramatic and had occured over a shorter time frame, clearly pointing to PB as the main contributing factor.

[volvotuning]

The analogy with a manual car is to imagine that you have tied the rear tow eye to a wall so that the car cannot go anywhere, then rev the engine to 2500 rpm and then ride the clutch without stalling. You can probably see that the clutch will burn out very very quickly!

Adam.

[wright_t5]

Indeed, I agree, well now, I never really fully understood what went on in an auto box, I always assumed that there would be "slippage" due to the nature of the box, my assumption was based on incorrect knowledge of how they work, in many ways they are very like a manual box as you say, and in others they differ, but understanding what I saw :eek: and as dave says the wear and distruction happened over a much shorter time frame than usual, the cltuch plates were worn to a shine, a ball was out of place, the bands had been really worked... all in all I trashed the box.... I never learned about power braking with an old 740 I had, probably why the box was still as strong as an ox at 180,000 miles!!!!!

Assumption..... let the box do IT's work, and let the Engine get you to the end!!! anything else... well that's the winner :shifty:

Happy days...

Still can't believe how smooth it is now.................

Oh, VT, you open Saturdays? still wanna come over... thanks for the support you gave me... I know it was a difficult time..

[lance]

The analogy with a manual car is to imagine that you have tied the rear tow eye to a wall so that the car cannot go anywhere, then rev the engine to 2500 rpm and then ride the clutch without stalling. You can probably see that the clutch will burn out very very quickly!

Adam.

I did that once and my clutch is still working 10k on ,but it properley burnt and feels worn but was given a clean bill 10k ago dont know which I will have to do first turbo or clutch!
I want a turbo but Im sure a few 1/4 mile runs would mean a new clutch if I try and power launch!

[Wobbly Dave]

I am working on an additional cooling system for the gearbox. It is nearly finished - though I hit a technical hitch on my first atttempt to install the new pipework

I will be publishing the details soon (with photo's)

[Pedro Fandango]

or, just don't power brake

[glock19]

Dave850R,
Can we just buy the sprag clutch and the works and DIY instead of sending them to the experts ? Even for wright_t5's 1k pounds for a complete job, that's a lot of money. You can practically buy a whole recond unit for it.

In my country, or state rather - there's only two handful of T5 and 1 unit 850R whereas the whole country has about less than a 100 units of T5s and 15 units of R/T5R. So AT clutch parts for these g/box are not being ordered in. If you can get hold of such replacement kits, please let me know.

[Wobbly Dave]

You need to read up on the Aisin Warner 50 42 gearbox. It isnt that simple. The clutches are not separate like they are in the M56, they are inside the box. Thus, you have to drop the subframe, suspend the engine, drop the box. That takes a day in itself. You have to know what you are doing. It isn't just a question of getting out a few tools, tinkering for a bit. The lad that did mine has been doing AT for 30 years!! He does little else. I have no doubt that you can replace the box - but sticking up a replacement without knowledge of condition strikes me as false economy in the long run. Hence I spent £1200 to have mine done properly. Ask Justin, Guy or any of the other's who have been in it since - it was worth every penny.

I asked my specialist to put in heavy duty clutch plates - which he duly did.

There is a company in America that does bomb proof AT kits - for about £3000! and for the life expectancy and use of the car - I couldn't justify that much.

[glock19]

Thanks Dave for your reply. I should be able to get hold of the tools and the manpower to drop the box, it's just that the replacement parts are hard to come by. Apart from the clutch plate sets, have you heard of problems associated with the 'Valve Body' ?

Heavy Duty huh ? Sounds tough.... :D

[Wobbly Dave]

Just in case you were interested the people in the USA I was thinking of is this lot

http://www.levelten.com/

I got this reply when investigating on the "oh so friendly" volvospeed forum

http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/index.php?showtopic=11246&st=0&p=101491&#entry101491entry101491

[glock19]

Dave,
The last post was last October and I guess the Americans are too busy figuring out their own problems (cars/politics/etc) to help you out. Anyway wait till they land here, then you show them a piece of your hospitality.

As you would have known (or haven't you), I'm in the SEA (South East Asia) region, Commonwealth country, British ruled and educated, so maybe you could help me out ? I need parts for the drivetrain/powertrain/moneytrain :D

[Wobbly Dave]

I only mentioned it for sake of completeness - as I couldn't remember what the company was earlier on. It would seem that they do post world wide.

[Wobbly Dave]

What bits do you need and I will see what I can do! Least I can do is get a price.

[glock19]

Okay, let me get the 'Mitchell-On-Demand' system running. Actually my box is still good but since I'm looking into the increase of power/torque, I feel I need to get some spares ready just-in-case.

Anyway, do you have a breakdown of parts which they changed for you ? Maybe a full illustrated diagram of the AT box from them to highlight critical parts ? Like I said, if these parts can be shipped to us, I feel a market could be opened up to refurbish such g/boxes here, thus another business venture for you & your counterparts, gain-gain situation... what do you say ?

Oh BTW, can this forum accept these talk ? I mean the one in Malaysia prohibits selling/buying because they operate on a community level - FOC for all and for the corporates, they charge a minimal sum for advertising.

[Wobbly Dave]

If your AT is OK then I wouldn't worry. Changing the fluid in the box is a good precaution and doesn't cost a lot.

Just change the ATF for Dextron III grade (or the best grade you can get your hands on)
To flush it properly takes about twice as much ATF as is in the box. The box does not drain well. There is a 24mm sump plug on the inside bottom edge of the gearbox (look from underneath). With this removed you'll be able to remove a fair amount ~ 3litres. The rest will still be in the torque converter and other pockets of the GB. Once all the trickles have stopped - put the sump plug back in. Undo the feedpipe on the bottom of the box - this allows a bit more out /then put that back in.

Unjack the car. Remove the battery. Take the battery tray out. Undo the 12mm return pipe - that feeds into the top of the GB. Put the end into a suitable receptacle. I cut the top of a 2l diet coke bottle - and shoved the bottom bit into the space.
Reconnect the battery and balance it on the chassis below where the tray sits.

You will need then feed in 1 - 2 litres at a time of the new ATF, down the dipstick pipe.

Get an assistant (if you can) to turn over the engine. ATF will come out of the return pipe. Usually you will be able to flush about 1 - 2 litres at a time.

Repeat until the stuff coming out is the same colour as the stuff going in.

Replace the return pipe and screw it back onto the top of the box. Fill to the appropriate level. The box takes 7 litres of ATF. Once you are there or there abouts on the level - go for a test drive and use all positions on the stick. Return and check the level.

Fit a cooler, for the belt and braces approach

Don't power brake.

I say - if it ain't broken then don't fix it.

[glock19]

Dave,
I saw the term 'Power Braking' elsewhere in the forum. What's the definition of this (duh)? Is it applying the brakes while pressing the throttle simultaneously or do you pull the gear level to 3rd or 2nd on the AT to have the engine do the braking for you ?

[Wobbly Dave]

You were right first time. I mean by power braking (also called boost braking) holding the car on the foot brake and for a few seconds raising the revs to 2200rpm - as such pre-loading the transmission. I originally thought that all the slippage would be in the fluid clutch, generating high ATF temps - but it would appear from the evidence of my dead clutch pack - that it was also causing damage to that part as well.

I can also do engine braking - but don't often use it unless I am on an exceptionally steep hill in traffic.

[Justin]

Glock if you wish to ship parts to your country for whatever reason, i have no problem with it being on the forum, obviously the finer points i would hope would be done via email or phone.

All i would ask is 30% if you become a millionaire :) and that every one of your customers recieves a free Volvot5.co.uk car sticker. lol

[glock19]

Justin, will do... How does the sticker look ? Glass, Body Panel or the Sunshade type on the front widnscreen ?

[Justin]

http://www.volvot5.co.uk/volvogallery/albums/Mine/normal_DSCF0407.jpg

;)

[glock19]

I thought so..... but do you stick on the outside or inside, looks like outside to me. Sre you not concerned about frost/sun/rain ?
Free ?

[Justin]

The old ones were on the outside mate, the new ones will be on the inside.

Yes the first 100 will be free, after that i will charge £1 to cover costs only :)

[glock19]

I wonder how much to ship to my area ? Anyway, you have credit card facility (on-line shopping) ?

[Justin]

I do yes, but would be easier to use paypal or something :)