Any idea where my powers gone ?

[V70 Graham]

For those of you who were at the RR day yesterday you would have seen my car embarrass itself and post a very low 253.0 bhp :(

This time last year it was a whole 4.1 bhp more and since then I have a new RICA 310 map a Forge recirc valve and Volvo TCV amongst other things.

The car now has a fair bit more torque 311.9 ft/lb compared to 274.0 ft/lb and drives well on the road, but.....as you can see from the graphs below this years has a dip around 3300 rpm which for those who weren't there yesterday was accompanied by 'chattering' sound.

Do any of you have any idea where I should be looking, maybe a new Forge actuator is on the cards as it's never been changed and I've been told the diaphragm can go in these, along with maybe an IPD TCV, anyone use these items ?

Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction, help as always greatly appreciated.

Last years graph.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg.html)

Yesterday's graph.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000083_zps2ef57768.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000083_zps2ef57768.jpg.html)

[t5 pete]

I blame the flat cap also the heavy duty bcs could be at fault with the dip in the graph also I my self have seen what different maps can produce on different cars I wouldnt be too unhappy as with the tourqe your pulling it should feel and drive really well

[V70 Graham]

I blame the flat cap also the heavy duty bcs could be at fault with the dip in the graph also I my self have seen what different maps can produce on different cars I wouldnt be too unhappy as with the tourqe your pulling it should feel and drive really well

It can't be the cap, you Northern lads have no problems lol.

The TCV we put on last year was a genuine Volvo one, the chattering did seen to start then, just wondering a) if the uprated IPD one would be a good idea and b) if the actuator may well need replacing.

[claymore]

In recon it's the air filter, when you decide to sell it, can I have first dibs :)

[V70 Graham]

In recon it's the air filter, when you decide to sell it, can I have first dibs :)

Hahahaha nice try mate.

[stribo]

I think the power went with your last exhaust. ;)

[M-R-P]

it can only be the tcv or actuator imo. I've always been suspicious of the tcv, I've never heard one that loud before. I have a nearly new one we could try and I could test the actuator to see if it's leaking or sticking.

[jamesy12345]

it can only be the tcv or actuator imo. I've always been suspicious of the tcv, I've never heard one that loud before. I have a nearly new one we could try and I could test the actuator to see if it's leaking or sticking.

Sounds correct to me, the torque seems to drop off so maybe the boost isn't holding

[deathrider311271]

In recon it's the air filter, when you decide to sell it, can I have first dibs :)

if its a BSR one you could well be right as mine was restricting power and air flow at anything over 290bhp

[merc85]

ive never heard a Bcs/tcv bleed of like that when boosting, id be changing that 1st as its very quick and easy, then adjust the actuator. But above all id certainly be fitting a Boost gauge so you can see exactly whats going on.

Tbh the turbo actuator should still be fit seeing your car is very low mileage.

[V70 Graham]

if its a BSR one you could well be right as mine was restricting power and air flow at anything over 290bhp

It's not Simon, it's a new 'Ramair' one and I think Colin is trying to get his hands on it.

[V70 Graham]

M-R-P might (if he gets time) post up a clip of my car on the rollers yesterday so you can hear the 'chatter'

[V70 Graham]

I blame the flat cap.....


In recon it's the air filter, when you decide to sell it, can I have first dibs :)


I think the power went with your last exhaust. ;)

Don't ya just love all the great technical help you get on VPC lol :hilarious

[t5 pete]

Don't ya just love all the great technical help you get on VPC lol :hilarious

Always glad to help oh just had a thought if we ever get some stickers it may regain your power the flat cap has lost

[V70 Graham]

Always glad to help oh just had a thought if we ever get some stickers it may regain your power the flat cap has lost

:doh: I give up....

[stribo]

Don't ya just love all the great technical help you get on VPC lol :hilarious

You should know that by now. ;)

[Santa]

Always glad to help oh just had a thought if we ever get some stickers it may regain your power the flat cap has lost

What stickers are you wanting?


it can only be the tcv or actuator imo. I've always been suspicious of the tcv, I've never heard one that loud before. I have a nearly new one we could try and I could test the actuator to see if it's leaking or sticking.

Looking at the latest graph Id have to agree

[t5 pete]

What stickers are you wanting?



Looking at the latest graph Id have to agree

I would like the out line of the estate pretty please, oh Santa I have been good this year "up to now"

[AndysR]

As previously said, BCS or actuator but we'd already touched on that yesterday :)

[Santa]

I would like the out line of the estate pretty please, oh Santa I have been good this year "up to now"
I can sort that, please drop me a pm :)

[960kg]

For those of you who were at the RR day yesterday you would have seen my car embarrass itself and post a very low 253.0 bhp :(

This time last year it was a whole 4.1 bhp more and since then I have a new RICA 310 map a Forge recirc valve and Volvo TCV amongst other things.

The car now has a fair bit more torque 311.9 ft/lb compared to 274.0 ft/lb and drives well on the road, but.....as you can see from the graphs below this years has a dip around 3300 rpm which for those who weren't there yesterday was accompanied by 'chattering' sound.

Do any of you have any idea where I should be looking, maybe a new Forge actuator is on the cards as it's never been changed and I've been told the diaphragm can go in these, along with maybe an IPD TCV, anyone use these items ?



Forge Recirculating Valves have different springs colours according to the boost required the same as in the Forge Actuator.

But of course the Recirc valve is a piston type......I have one fitted but with a Yellow spring ....perhaps you have the Red standard one fitted which will make the known chatter earlier?

[V70 Graham]

Forge Recirculating Valves have different springs colours according to the boost required the same as in the Forge Actuator.

But of course the Recirc valve is a piston type......I have one fitted but with a Yellow spring ....perhaps you have the Red standard one fitted which will make the known chatter earlier?

Nope, it's deffo the Yellow spring fitted.

[Jamest5r]

How can you have a thread title where's my power gone when you've got nearly 40lb more Torques?? Torque is what pulls you down the road like a stabbed rat forget the bhp its good enough, if it drives smoothly on the road leave it as it is if your not happy spend money :)

[Santa]

How can you have a thread title where's my power gone when you've got nearly 40lb more Torques?? Torque is what pulls you down the road like a stabbed rat forget the bhp its good enough, if it drives smoothly on the road leave it as it is if your not happy spend money :)
But if you look at the graph the torque doesnt hold for as long and the graph is a bit wavey

[Jamest5r]

But if you look at the graph the torque doesnt hold for as long and the graph is a bit wavey

It's all about how it is on the road, if it's better than before happy days if not spend money lol

[Santa]

It's all about how it is on the road, if it's better than before happy days if not spend money lol
Can agree with that, rolling road results arent everything.

[V70 Graham]

It's all about how it is on the road, if it's better than before happy days if not spend money lol


Can agree with that, rolling road results arent everything.

It is good on the road, but I think it could be better.

[Santa]

It is good on the road, but I think it could be better.
Slippy slope that lol

[t5 pete]

It is good on the road, but I think it could be better.

Oh dear I think you know what happens next lol

[Jamest5r]

It is good on the road, but I think it could be better.

Maybe your 310 map would work better with an after market exhaust :)

[stribo]

Slippy slope that lol


Oh dear I think you know what happens next lol

He's not allowed to spend any money on the car after the exhaust debacle. :hilarious

[merc85]

Slippy slope that lol

lol yeah i know that one

[M-R-P]

Here's the uncut video of Graham's car on the rollers. When you hear the TCV start chattering, you can actually see the front of the car drop down a bit, showing the sudden loss of power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqZrd3WnGDQ

[V70 Graham]

What do we recon then.....TCV ?

[stribo]

Scrap it, and buy a C70. :P In all seriousness mate, fit (sorry, get Martin to fit) a bloody boost guage, without that you have no idea what's going on.

[JUDGENINJA]

Get it changed and we'll go back. I need to run the V40.

[AndysR]

FWIW the noise you can hear is the wastegate releasing causing a drop in boost, this is happening for 1 of 2 reasons.
1, The management is telling it to do so via the BCS because it's protecting something/controlling a boost spike.
2, There is a mechanical fault with the actuator, the turbo, the recirc valve or an electrical fault with the BCS.

Personally I'd check the operation and adjustments of the wastegate actuator. If the arm is too tight then it maybe boost spiking initially and the management system is therefore detecting a boost spike causing the boost to be bled off as it initially spikes and then holding the boost levels back to protect the engine.
If the actuator is weak or has a split diaphragm then I certainly wouldn't fit anything other than a standard new Volvo/Mitsubishi supplied actuator for a stage 1 car. Unlike the aftermarket items with interchangeable springs these actuators are a sealed unit and due to this design cannot suffer with air leaks to the same level as the actuators which have interchangeable springs and therefore give more consistency in operation and help to avoid boost loss and or spikes.

Another thing you could try for testing purposes if you have access to one is a blanking plate to replace the recirc valve, it maybe that the Forge one you have isn't any good for your current set up. The BCS or TCV would probably be the last thing I tried as you've already renewed this recently with a new one, agreed this chattering noise has only occurred since you fitted it but I suspect that's more because it's highlighted a fault elsewhere rather than occurred as a result of a faulty new BCS.

I suspect your problem is rather minor and will be easy to resolve with the right time and knowledge applied as the car runs too well everywhere else to be a significant fault ;)

[V70 Graham]

Recirc valve was changed at the same time as the TCV, hope it's not that, haven't got the old one now !

[stribo]

Recirc valve was changed at the same time as the TCV, hope it's not that, haven't got the old one now !

I've got a spare if needs be. ;)

[AndysR]

Recirc valve was changed at the same time as the TCV, hope it's not that, haven't got the old one now !

Oh... I've just seen that you fitted a Forge one, even if the fault isn't the recirc valve personally I'd get a genuine one and use the Forge one as a paper weight ...

[V70 Graham]

Oh... I've just seen that you fitted a Forge one, even if the fault isn't the recirc valve personally I'd get a genuine one and use the Forge one as a paper weight ...

For what reason ?

[AndysR]

For what reason ?

Previous experiences with boosting issues and a Forge product....

[M-R-P]

having done extensive tampering with the forge recirc, I'm pretty happy with how it works. after all, it's closed under pressure and opens under vacuum.
I'm pretty sure it's holding boost. if it didn't open at all, it would chatter like mad and if it was blowing open, I'd imagine it would be pretty audible.

I'll be testing it all asap, if anybody can lend me a boost gauge for a week, it would be a big help ;)

[Jim S70R]

Not that it helps but I reckon the power loss is from when you took that intercooler out of your boot lol.....sorry couldn't help myself!!

Reckon Andys hit the nail on the head with his diag about you car!! Hope you can get to the bottom of it and get her back up to running full power again.

[960kg]

I agree totaly with AndysR even as far as the Forge products are concerned!.........i do have the Forge Recirc Valve fitted but i don`t like it ......the noise is horrible, not even a nice chav noise!

The Mitsubishi valve diaphragm`s are a superb design and very strong and will last the engine out ......probably.

But along come us tuners or fiddlers and just because it`s nice and shiny pay the earth for something that makes no difference at all. .......me included.....i had 19psi for 3yrs on my `98 T4 and not a wimper from the 14T as standard.

The only thing one has to do is adjust the actuator rod as it does wear elongated and the boost will drop away so to keep on top of the boost adjust regularly to the base setting or whatever flicks your switch!

Probably AndysR is correct about the adjustable Forge Actuator perhaps it has stuck wide open somehow and the TCV has shut things down??

[V70 Graham]

I did also fit the 3" MAF intake but Martin kept an eye on the afr's Saturday and said everything looked fine, it's just strange the problem (chattering) has started since the TCV/recirc were done, we will be looking at the TCV and actuator next Monday to see if we can find the problem, if not I may have to change the recirc back to a genuine Volvo item.

[M-R-P]

I agree totaly with AndysR even as far as the Forge products are concerned!.........i do have the Forge Recirc Valve fitted but i don`t like it ......the noise is horrible, not even a nice chav noise!

The Mitsubishi valve diaphragm`s are a superb design and very strong and will last the engine out ......probably.

But along come us tuners or fiddlers and just because it`s nice and shiny pay the earth for something that makes no difference at all. .......me included.....i had 19psi for 3yrs on my `98 T4 and not a wimper from the 14T as standard.

The only thing one has to do is adjust the actuator rod as it does wear elongated and the boost will drop away so to keep on top of the boost adjust regularly to the base setting or whatever flicks your switch!

Probably AndysR is correct about the adjustable Forge Actuator perhaps it has stuck wide open somehow and the TCV has shut things down??
It's got a standard actuator on there at the moment Keith, there's talk of fitting a forge should this one be goosed. I checked the movement of the actuator a few weeks ago and it felt nice and strong and there were no notches in it's movement, but I didn't check to see if it was holding pressure - something on the list for monday.
I quite like the Forge recirc although it takes a bit of setting - up initially. The noise isn't really an issue for Graham as everything is still pretty quiet in the cabin but it did make some comical noises on the rollers. Knowing the car as well as I do, The possibility of the recirc being the route cause of the problem is way down the list, but won't be forgotten and once I rule out the obvious, I'll work my way through everything else.

[V70 Graham]

it can only be the tcv or actuator imo. I've always been suspicious of the tcv, I've never heard one that loud before. I have a nearly new one we could try and I could test the actuator to see if it's leaking or sticking.

Well after a long night with M-R-P we have discovered it's not the actuator, though the old one I had was letting air past, changed for the new forge unit and it's exactly the same.

We also tried a different TCV and guess what, still the same.

I think I'm going to have to start removing parts now and revert them to standard in the hope of finding the problem, probably try a new recirc first. :(

[stribo]

Well after a long night with M-R-P we have discovered it's not the actuator, though the old one I had was letting air past, changed for the new forge unit and it's exactly the same.

We also tried a different TCV and guess what, still the same.

I think I'm going to have to start removing parts now and revert them to standard in the hope of finding the problem, probably try a new recirc first. :(

I did say to MRP on the day it sounded like the recirc opening too early, but he assured me it was the TCV.

[oblark]

I think I'm going to have to start removing parts now and revert them to standard in the hope of finding the problem,

Looks like some cheap parts coming up for sale soon.

First dibs on the air filter :)

[V70 Graham]

I think I may have found the problem.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCj6Spwl1CU

Looks like compressor surge, not healthy for the turbo, here are a couple of articles.....

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24675

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/77587-what-is-compressor-surge-explanation-within/

[V70 Graham]

Looks like some cheap parts coming up for sale soon.

First dibs on the air filter :)

Nope, car will simply be parked up till I can find a solution.

[T5RatherAmusin]

Looks like some cheap parts coming up for sale soon.

First dibs on the air filter :)

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/390592817886?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE

[partsforvolvos.com]

from the detail that may be related to your car symptoms in the article, I suspect a little fettling of the forge valve is worth trying as you have the tuning kit. also recommend to speak to sam or john at forge, john particularly is a font of knowledge and very helpful.

[stribo]

I've heard of this, I believe the cure is a bigger downpipe with sports cat, freer flowing exhaust, and a larger intercooler.:P

[V70 Graham]

Like has been said before your turbo is flowing too much air for the engine to ingest at your operating points. If you have surge at WOT you need to increase the amount of air your engine can flow with a certain displacement and engine speed, aka increase your volumetric efficiency/eliminate flow restrictions post compressor outlet.

Can anyone tell me what this means please, has the increased diameter maf pipe work caused this ?

http://www.partsforvolvosonline.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_1160_1171_1188&products_id=8344

[V70 Graham]

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?44183-V70-Graham-s-relentless-pursuit-of-perfection!/page16

Post No : 307

TCV and intake pipe were done in Sept, recirc not till Oct....chattering started after the pipe work, I think the increased diameter pipe is pushing too much air into the turbo, just waiting for someone more knowledgeable to confirm lol

[partsforvolvos.com]

in the lines of the (very long!) explaination you linked to, it could be as your outlet size is standard, but your inlet size is increased.
this is not something I'm going to pretend to be an expert on, its too complicated for me.
take it off and try it is the only way . at least it is a simple thing to swap.

also, regarding engine management with fitting a larger maf housing as I have been thinking about this:

the engine ecu will work on the set software checksum that there is a certain amount of air volume passing the maf sensor (point a) given the oe diameter of the tube and pressure.
secondly, at whatever reading is generated by the maf sensor, the ecu expects to see a certain reading that it knows to be that of running correctly at point b - the lambdas.
so, if you change A to a larger size and do not remap, the engine is correcting the afr on the basis of the readings at point b- and the associated sensors in between before it goes out of range and turns on a warning light.
going significantly out of range without the me7 built in self adaptability back up results in what happened to Frankie, but this would also prove for me that ecu modification to suit the new maf inlet size is necessary whether the car has me7 or not.


Also, the other thing could be that this noise is generated by the forge part because of its design and not a fault with it.
the original rubber diaphragm could still be fluttering/pulsing, but you can't hear this happening as it is not a metal piston.

just my thoughts as to an explaination if it turns out it could be related to this inlet tube, but we'll see if/when it is swapped over.

[V70 Graham]

Having briefly spoken to Martin and gone over what mods I have done to the car and when it seems very likely that the increased diameter inlet pipe could be the cause, the recirc was added a month later to try and cure the problem (which it didn't)
Reading up on compressor surge I am fairly confident that this is what I have.....more air than the engine can handle, pushing it back through the turbo spinning it backwards.....not a good thing.

[M-R-P]

Right - Compressor surge then, After spending a few hours last night and a few more today (while waiting for contact from ze Germans, regarding a machine failure at work) looking into possible causes of this noise, not knowing Graham had been doing the same, we both came to the same conclusion. Time to get this sorted methinks!

I have my old OE inlet to use as a last resort (I can modify it to fit the BSR thingy) but I'm intending to fit a choke point into the inlet pipe, just before the MAF to reduce the airflow...

During the testing last night, I could hear a ringing noise that may or may not have been the aftermath of detonation. This was happening either side of the flutter which was followed very quickly by a slight drop in power. This is something I've had on my car when I was running a crap MBC and running lean (many of you remember the RR day at Uxbridge last year when my car spiked to 22psi and suffered multiple detonations etc..) so as Jamie has said above, the MAF could well be under-reading.

The choke in front of the maf should allow a correct reading while slowing the airflow enough to keep it all steady. I intend to use a length of silicone/rubber pipe, inserted into the existing DO88 pipe so as not to impact the overall "bling" of the engine bay.

If I can get my act together today, I'll be heading up to Graham and getting the bloody thing sorted. The car hates me. Seriously. Fighting me all the way last night, fitted hundreds of quids worth gear, pulled muscles I didn't know I had and achieved nothing other than diagnosing and rectifying a knackered actuator.
Gonna fix it I tells thee!

[T5RatherAmusin]

aven't read this thread really tbh gra but noticed the mention of CS...
I take it your getting like a fluttering sound. can you tell me when you are?...During boost, after boost?.....

[V70 Graham]

aven't read this thread really tbh gra but noticed the mention of CS...
I take it your getting like a fluttering sound. can you tell me when you are?...During boost, after boost?.....

The sound is during boost, not when lifting off the throttle.

[partsforvolvos.com]

that sounds like a fair idea - an insert into the pipe to regain the original diameter.
clever you are.....

[V70 Graham]

that sounds like a fair idea - an insert into the pipe to regain the original diameter.
clever you are.....

He's thinking an insert into the top of the pipe prior to the MAF, just after the air filter where the pipe goes through the BSR intake.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000028_zps815038b8.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000028_zps815038b8.jpg.html)

[M-R-P]

that sounds like a fair idea - an insert into the pipe to regain the original diameter.
clever you are.....

I spend my life producing successful bodges mate :)

[V70 Graham]

I spend my life producing successful bodges mate :)

:shifty:

[M-R-P]

:shifty:

If it works, it'll be a 20 minute fix mate :) (and I mean 20 minute, not 2 hours getting at the damn thing to spend 20 minutes fixing it ;) )

[M-R-P]

See you at about 2100-2130 tonight mate ;)

[V70 Graham]

See you at about 2100-2130 tonight mate ;)

Refreshments will be ready lol, just don't forget anything you might need.....will you get it all in the 'Piglet' ?

[M-R-P]

I'll put the toolboxes in the passenger footwell to balance the weight distribution up a bit :)

[V70 Graham]

I'll put the toolboxes in the passenger footwell to balance the weight distribution up a bit :)

I'll keep an eye out for ya.....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/5078845990_b93f33890e_zps3e116682.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/5078845990_b93f33890e_zps3e116682.jpg.html)

[M-R-P]

I'll keep an eye out for ya.....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/5078845990_b93f33890e_zps3e116682.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/5078845990_b93f33890e_zps3e116682.jpg.html)

I remember that test drive, bit short of leg room.

[stribo]

In all seriousness mate, the downpipe and exhaust probably would have alleviated this, as all you've done is concentrated on getting as much air into the engine, without making allowances for that extra air/gas having to get out.

[V70 Graham]

In all seriousness mate, the downpipe and exhaust probably would have alleviated this, as all you've done is concentrated on getting as much air into the engine, without making allowances for that extra air/gas having to get out.

In all seriousness mate......your probably right lol

[AndysR]

Put the car back to standard then go from there? Tbh I forgotten you'd altered your intake before the turbo and after my incident which occurred as a result of altering the pipe from the maf to the turbo I'd suggest reverting back to the standard maf to turbo pipe/maf housing as a first choice...

[Harvey]

The bigger turbo feed pipe is only going to allow the air to flow easier under vacuum into the turbo as it's sucking it in.
Surely that can only max flow at the smallest diameter in the pipe which is just before the hose clamps onto the turbo.
but as you are saying the air flow meter is saying the engine is getting less air as the air speed will be lower at the airflow sensor as the pipe is so much bigger than the stock item.
I do hope this is the problem.

[M-R-P]

sort of sorted...

I fitted some 5mm sleeves inside the intake pipe and, although the ME7 was still working things out on the last test drive, all appears well. Loads of grunt with no fluttering or surging.
I'm not gonna say it's sorted until it's done a few more miles as fitting several different sleeve configurations did upset the ecu somewhat but it's looking good and a simple way of fitting bigger pipework without fear of a big bang or extra costs of customising the map.

[V70 Graham]

First impressions are good, ME7 is still adjusting itself as Martin says, should know more on the way home this afternoon.....

[Harvey]

I don't suppose you had any air flow meter readings before and after ?.
So what mathematician can work out the flow rate difference with this mod done then,let's hope you have got it sorted.
So what's the maximum difference The ECU can compensate for in percentage terms.

[M-R-P]

Errr...

What we knew was the DO88 pipe is about 18% bigger than the OE pipe (not taking into account the airflow disruption caused by the concertina parts of the OE pipe) so I fitted a sleeve which will have reduced the internal cross-section by 15-20%. I tried different sleeves in different configurations and settled on 5mm sleeves, one that locates around the base of the MAF sensor to control flow across the sensor (not touching any sensors or wiring) and one just after the air filter.

Seems to work but like I said, I'd like to see some more miles on it in this configuration, with no problems, before I'm prepared to call it fixed.

[V70 Graham]

Yeah....wot he said lol

Maybe Jamie has the figures ?

[M-R-P]

Ah yes, Jamie...

I have to say I'm sorry I didn't listen to Jamie from the start. His first suggestion was the size of the DO88 pipe but believing compressor surge didn't occur on engines with such a low level of tune, I chose to look at other factors. I may have even gone some way to convincing him it wasn't the pipe :slap:

Well done that man, I'll remember to pay more attention to your advice in future :)

Now awaiting the raft of "I told you so's" as I know a few others also suggested the pipe :shifty:

[V70 Graham]

I told you so......er no I didn't but I did work out the problem was due to compressor surge.

[stribo]

So, what you've done, is fit a larger intake pipe to increase air flow, then restricted it, because the air flow was too much for the engine? Which begs the question , why not just fit the standard pipe?

[V70 Graham]

So, what you've done, is fit a larger intake pipe to increase air flow, then restricted it, because the air flow was too much for the engine? Which begs the question , why not just fit the standard pipe?

I loaned the standard pipe to a member so I don't have it at home, that will be the next step should it be needed.

[M-R-P]

Two reasons..

A: Bling.

B: The idea of a solid pipe is not just to increase airflow but to smooth the flow past the MAF and into the compressor. The concertina sections in the OE pipe, put there to take up engine movement, cause disruption in the airflow, causing a slight drop in compressor efficiency.

[stribo]

Two reasons..

A: Bling.

B: The idea of a solid pipe is not just to increase airflow but to smooth the flow past the MAF and into the compressor. The concertina sections in the OE pipe, put there to take up engine movement, cause disruption in the airflow, causing a slight drop in compressor efficiency.

Or perhaps they prevent compressor surge. :lol:

[graemewelch]

I loaned the standard pipe to a member so I don't have it at home, that will be the next step should it be needed.

did some one call me.

[V70 Graham]

Or perhaps they prevent compressor surge. :lol:

Hahahaha knowing my luck, yes.

[V70 Graham]

did some one call me.

Oi, you haven't got time to be on here.....till ya find my pipe lol

[partsforvolvos.com]

Ah yes, Jamie...

I have to say I'm sorry I didn't listen to Jamie from the start. His first suggestion was the size of the DO88 pipe but believing compressor surge didn't occur on engines with such a low level of tune, I chose to look at other factors. I may have even gone some way to convincing him it wasn't the pipe :slap:

Well done that man, I'll remember to pay more attention to your advice in future :)

Now awaiting the raft of "I told you so's" as I know a few others also suggested the pipe :shifty:

Wouldn't ever say I told you so mate that's silly to do.
just glad you found a solution that nobody else thought of so graham could keep his bling.

I don't have any exact observed figures on the effect changing the maf housing has, but tim Williams does.
from his feedback I can tell you its a pretty significant change between the readings when the sensor has the original calibration and actual.

But yes, you did do a fair job initially of convincing me it wasn't the pipe kit and I was along the wrong lines , but I became more convinced again when it was confirmed not to be the tcv or forge valve. :hug:

[M-R-P]

Wouldn't ever say I told you so mate that's silly to do.
just glad you found a solution that nobody else thought of so graham could keep his bling.

I don't have any exact observed figures on the effect changing the maf housing has, but tim Williams does.
from his feedback I can tell you its a pretty significant change between the readings when the sensor has the original calibration and actual.

But yes, you did do a fair job initially of convincing me it wasn't the pipe kit and I was along the wrong lines , but I became more convinced again when it was confirmed not to be the tcv or forge valve. :hug:

When I was first looking into the sound, the subject of compressor surge kept cropping up but in 400bhp evos and 600bhp skylines, I just couldn't fathom how it would be a case in a low-tune engine, so I just overlooked it.

It's a lesson learned and something I'll not forget. I looked into the maths involved but the bit of my brain that tells me weather or not I'm interested got distracted by something shiny and wandered off.

[V70 Graham]

Well.....did about 25 miles today to work and back, did a 'Miss Daisy' on the way this morning but went the long way home via a few nice roads to 'test' the fix and I must say I can't hear the 'chatter' any more, I will take the car again tomorrow or Friday and check again but so far so good.

Does anyone know how long the ECU has to 'learn to adapt' to the new air intake ?

[partsforvolvos.com]

I would have thought half a dozen cycles should make a fair difference .

[M-R-P]

it adapts pretty quickly but I'd like to see at least 30 miles of no trouble before I relax my sphincter.

[partsforvolvos.com]

http://sportsprotectiontechnologies.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/CungLeClench-300x225.jpg

don't worry mate

[AndysR]

Glad to hear you sorted it Graham/Martin. I think it's safe to say you're better off with a standard car than you are a modified one as either you or the car seems to be rejecting the mods slowly but surely... Lol

[V70 Graham]

Back to square one with this, had some rough running issues over the past couple of days, I think something's interfering with the MAF

If anyone has a standard intake pipe and MAF housing I'd appreciate you letting me know.

[M-R-P]

Frankie's breaking his R-beque. His should fit, or can be made to fit.

[V70 Graham]

Frankie's breaking his R-beque. His should fit, or can be made to fit.

Gav has just pm'd me but his isn't an ME7 one, I think they are different, will check when I get home.

[stribo]

You can borrow the one off the cabbie, if you want to see if it makes a difference.

[V70 Graham]

You can borrow the one off the cabbie, if you want to see if it makes a difference.

I think I need an ME7 one mate, I also need a MAF housing.

[stribo]

The cabbie is ME7 :slap:

[960kg]

Like has been said before your turbo is flowing too much air for the engine to ingest at your operating points. If you have surge at WOT you need to increase the amount of air your engine can flow with a certain displacement and engine speed, aka increase your volumetric efficiency/eliminate flow restrictions post compressor outlet.

Can anyone tell me what this means please, has the increased diameter maf pipe work caused this ?

http://www.partsforvolvosonline.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_1160_1171_1188&products_id=8344


Just to add my 2p worth......the Link states quite clearly that you cannot use this 3" inlet pipe unless you do the necessary remap etc.

Note:

The surface area of this inlet pipes is about 18% larger then factory pipe, therefore larger fuel injectors must be assembled and/or the software be re-programed to maintain correct air/fuel ratio.

So really i am not surprised you have problems and best to remove it before any damage is caused!

All these mods with inlet pipes and RIP mods where does it get one except a rather large hole in the wallet ......especially with ME7!

If one is building a separate engine for best performance i would be the first one to use all these mods but they still have to be all matched with one another.....no good fitting something that is not comparable to the rest!

[M-R-P]

A map tweak would sort this but in the meantime, getting the old inlet on there is gonna be the quickest solution.

It's just a bugger the choke is causing such an issue for the maf

[AndysR]

Back to square one with this, had some rough running issues over the past couple of days, I think something's interfering with the MAF

If anyone has a standard intake pipe and MAF housing I'd appreciate you letting me know.

It's a real shame to hear your having difficulties again Graham, if you're anything like me with cars, and I think you are, this is seriously knocking your interest levels in the car. I do hope you can resolve it relatively quickly so you can get back to enjoying what really is a lovely genuine example of a V70 :)



Just to add my 2p worth......the Link states quite clearly that you cannot use this 3" inlet pipe unless you do the necessary remap etc.

Note:

The surface area of this inlet pipes is about 18% larger then factory pipe, therefore larger fuel injectors must be assembled and/or the software be re-programed to maintain correct air/fuel ratio.

So really i am not surprised you have problems and best to remove it before any damage is caused!

All these mods with inlet pipes and RIP mods where does it get one except a rather large hole in the wallet ......especially with ME7!

If one is building a separate engine for best performance i would be the first one to use all these mods but they still have to be all matched with one another.....no good fitting something that is not comparable to the rest!

I have to agree with you there, this isn't directed at anyone btw, but you can't just alter various areas of a car without going the whole hog. I've said it time and time again if you're going to modify something get it custom mapped. This way not only can you get the best out of what you've done but you can also make sure it's safe, I'd didn't follow that advice and I killed my engine because I thought it would be a good idea fitting an enlarged intake pipe, granted mine was running a higher spec than standard boost wise anyway but just by altering the pipe between the turbo and the maf it was enough to alter the way the air was drawn into the engine and ultimately bend a rod. It was a costly mistake and one I don't intend on doing again...

[V70 Graham]

Your right Andy, I'm getting a little frustrated with it at the moment, luckily for me the problem was highlighted at the RR day and I had a chance to look into the cause before any damage was done.
Hopefully I can get the car running smoothly again in the next day or two and then get the stock intake pipe back on.

[jamesy12345]

Your right Andy, I'm getting a little frustrated with it at the moment, luckily for me the problem was highlighted at the RR day and I had a chance to look into the cause before any damage was done.
Hopefully I can get the car running smoothly again in the next day or two and then get the stock intake pipe back on.

I think mine was running lean Graham, so running hot too and baked the head bolts in on the exhaust side. When the head bolt snapped and another rounded off I was preparing myself for a 'breaking' thread.....don't lose heart it'll be alright in the end!! As you say at least it was picked up quickly

[graemewelch]

Your right Andy, I'm getting a little frustrated with it at the moment, luckily for me the problem was highlighted at the RR day and I had a chance to look into the cause before any damage was done.
Hopefully I can get the car running smoothly again in the next day or two and then get the stock intake pipe back on.

this is wear im getting confused, i thought your afrs were spot on dyno day.

[Harvey]

I think the easy way to get to the bottom is as you have said fit stock items until you get it running correct,or what was fitted when it was remapped last would be a very good baseline to work from.

[V70 Graham]

Right, a little update.....

Jumped in the car after work and it was back to lumpy tickover and rough running, got the car home and cracked open the Halfrauds socket set for the second day running !

Took the MAF out again and gave it another clean, while it was drying I took off the air filter and removed the 2 'chokes' we added on Wednesday, gave the inside of the pipe a good clean and popped the lot back together.
Car fired up first time and settled to a nice smooth idle :biggrin:

I went for a nice gentle 25-30 mile drive and the car never missed a beat.

I have parked the car up for the night now, just hoping it starts ok and runs smoothly in the morning, if so I have al least sorted the rough running and will be on the lookout for one of these come Monday.....

Volvo part : 9445351 (I think that's the correct one for my ME7)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg.html)

[siamblue]

I will have a look Graham to see if i have one..

[ExternalError]

sorry to read about your troubles graham hope you get it all sorted

[graemewelch]

Right, a little update.....

Jumped in the car after work and it was back to lumpy tickover and rough running, got the car home and cracked open the Halfrauds socket set for the second day running !

Took the MAF out again and gave it another clean, while it was drying I took off the air filter and removed the 2 'chokes' we added on Wednesday, gave the inside of the pipe a good clean and popped the lot back together.
Car fired up first time and settled to a n


ice smooth idle :biggrin:

I went for a nice gentle 25-30 mile drive and the car never missed a beat.

I have parked the car up for the night now, just hoping it starts ok and runs smoothly in the morning, if so I have al least sorted the rough running and will be on the lookout for one of these come Monday.....

Volvo part : 9445351 (I think that's the correct one for my ME7)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg.html)


are you sure you dont have a maf issue. It sounds like it to me

[V70 Graham]

are you sure you dont have a maf issue. It sounds like it to me

I'm hoping that's now been sorted having removed the 'chokes' we put in Wednesday.

[graemewelch]

I just dont understand how its been fine for 6 months plus then all of a sudden its playing up.

[Wobbly Dave]

Right, a little update.....

Jumped in the car after work and it was back to lumpy tickover and rough running, got the car home and cracked open the Halfrauds socket set for the second day running !

Took the MAF out again and gave it another clean, while it was drying I took off the air filter and removed the 2 'chokes' we added on Wednesday, gave the inside of the pipe a good clean and popped the lot back together.
Car fired up first time and settled to a nice smooth idle :biggrin:

I went for a nice gentle 25-30 mile drive and the car never missed a beat.

I have parked the car up for the night now, just hoping it starts ok and runs smoothly in the morning, if so I have al least sorted the rough running and will be on the lookout for one of these come Monday.....

Volvo part : 9445351 (I think that's the correct one for my ME7)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/fullsize_7240_zpsc2717c01.jpg.html)
I have 2 of these you could have had.

[stribo]

I just dont understand how its been fine for 6 months plus then all of a sudden its playing up.

To be honest I don't think it's been playing up as such, but after the RR day Graham isn't happy with the results, and there maybe compresor surge (of course a decent exhaust would probably sort that ;) ). He's never been happy with the fluttering noise he gets on boost, which I believe is just the TCV, as I get it with my car but have only started hearing it since the under bonnet insulation was taken off, once you open up the intake pipes, you're going to hear a lot more of the turbo, and associated parts. What I would like to see, and I think Graham's of the same mind, is to revert as much as possible back to standard, then gradualy add parts, until the car starts playing up.
If I'm honest, and from the noises it was making on the RR, I still think it's the recirc valve, but, no-one else agrees so I'll wait and see.

[V70 Graham]

I have 2 of these you could have had.

I do need one Dave, I'll PM you mate.

[V70 Graham]

To be honest I don't think it's been playing up as such, but after the RR day Graham isn't happy with the results, and there maybe compresor surge (of course a decent exhaust would probably sort that ;) ). He's never been happy with the fluttering noise he gets on boost, which I believe is just the TCV, as I get it with my car but have only started hearing it since the under bonnet insulation was taken off, once you open up the intake pipes, you're going to hear a lot more of the turbo, and associated parts. What I would like to see, and I think Graham's of the same mind, is to revert as much as possible back to standard, then gradualy add parts, until the car starts playing up.
If I'm honest, and from the noises it was making on the RR, I still think it's the recirc valve, but, no-one else agrees so I'll wait and see.

It's not the TCV, I have tried a couple now, the 'chatter' is on WOT and I have diagnosed this as compressor surge.

The problem only came to light at the RR day when the dip in power was seen.

[V70 Graham]

This morning the car fired up first time and ran smoothly, hopefully get a genuine intake pipe/MAF housing and sort the 'surge' soon.

[oblark]

Will you be selling your do88 intake pipe ?

[stribo]

Watch out, the vultures are circling.;)

[oblark]

Watch out, the vultures are circling.;)

I need a 3" maf and intake pipe for the new engine. If Graham sells his it will save me from making one :)

[V70 Graham]

Will you be selling your do88 intake pipe ?

Yes mate, just as soon as I have replaced mine with the standard one.

[oblark]

Yes mate, just as soon as I have replaced mine with the standard one.

Just looked on the do88 web site and your maf mounting is different from mine :( looks like I'll have to make one after all.

[stribo]

I need a 3" maf and intake pipe for the new engine. If Graham sells his it will save me from making one :)

Is a ME7 one not 3"?

[oblark]

Is a ME7 one not 3"?

The me7 maf is different to a 850 maf.

Looks like I mite be using a 840i maf housing

[smithy]

Yes mate, just as soon as I have replaced mine with the standard one.

Why don't you just get the map tweaked for the new mods

[V70 Graham]

Why don't you just get the map tweaked for the new mods

Is this possible on a Rica 310 ?

[stribo]

Speak to Hamish, he should be able to tell you.

[V70 Graham]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but I thought I had a physical problem of too much air being fed to the turbo.

[graemewelch]

Speak to Hamish, he should be able to tell you.


I strongly recomend you dont mention rica infront of hamish

[V70 Graham]

I strongly recomend you dont mention rica infront of hamish

Martin and I had fun winding him up when we went up last year to get the swede mapped.

[ExternalError]

You should be able to get the map adjusted if the problem is to much air the fueling tables will be off as the readings from the MAF will indicate to the engine how much fuel is needed to be added to get the desired AFR if you have increased your intake size thus altering the reading the MAF reading is sending as it is set up for a standard size intake. My mate had something similar but after Martin said the AFRs were all good i wasnt sure if it was the same issue my mate on his ST fitted bigger injectors and got hi Colins stage 1 map tweaked for the injectors and Airflow

[V70 Graham]

Hmmm....not really interested in new injectors as well tbh, hopefully Dave can pop his pipe in the post so I can try that.

[ExternalError]

You may not need new injectors he was aiming at 350bhp when he fitted them.

[V70 Graham]

You may not need new injectors he was aiming at 350bhp when he fitted them.

Cool, as an option I have someone getting back to me about altering the map tomorrow to let me know if it can be done.

[M-R-P]

you won't need injectors for your level of tune mate, they just need the duty cycle adjusted, the boost map tweaked and the air map sorted.

[stribo]

Basically all they have to do is recalibrate the MAF reading to take into account the 18% increase in cross-section area in the pipework.

[ExternalError]

Yeah thats what he had tweaked on his ST, just got my self some VXR injectors for mine almost ready to get it mapped due to the insurance being 250 quid lower than I budgeted for

[V70 Graham]

Basically all they have to do is recalibrate the MAF reading to take into account the 18% increase in cross-section area in the pipework.

Thanks mate, well put and easy to understand.

[The Flying Moose]

Completely unrelated Graham as I believe your car was run in the correct mode but I have been looking at my graph and it appears Power Engineering didnt run my car in the correct mode looking at the Dyno Dynamics manual.

Heres three examples of the same car run in three different modes a Subaru 4x4 run in three different modes, the last being the correct mode for the engine and drivetrain, the difference is quite something...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5557880040_4d57f1d7e2_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5029/5557880174_e5d6ab2ba8_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5557295669_76d978c324_z.jpg

[JamesT5]

For those of you who were at the RR day yesterday you would have seen my car embarrass itself and post a very low 253.0 bhp :(

This time last year it was a whole 4.1 bhp more and since then I have a new RICA 310 map a Forge recirc valve and Volvo TCV amongst other things.

The car now has a fair bit more torque 311.9 ft/lb compared to 274.0 ft/lb and drives well on the road, but.....as you can see from the graphs below this years has a dip around 3300 rpm which for those who weren't there yesterday was accompanied by 'chattering' sound.

Do any of you have any idea where I should be looking, maybe a new Forge actuator is on the cards as it's never been changed and I've been told the diaphragm can go in these, along with maybe an IPD TCV, anyone use these items ?

Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction, help as always greatly appreciated.

Last years graph.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg.html)

Yesterday's graph.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000083_zps2ef57768.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000083_zps2ef57768.jpg.html)

The ECU has recalibrated itself to drive at no more than 35mph and not exceed 1500rpm...... ;)

No idea mate, perhaps the equipment it was tested on was a little bit different to when you had it tested a whole back.

[V70 Graham]

Update, returned the intake pipe back to normal yesterday with the help of 'Birthday Boy'

Car fired up first time and settled into a nice steady idle, took it for a 'test drive' and all seems well, I'm booked back into Power Engineering Saturday so I can compare the difference on their rolling road.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/IMG_1199_zpsfbc6d128.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/IMG_1199_zpsfbc6d128.jpg.html)

[partsforvolvos.com]

very interesting, given do88 said they drove the kit around on a standard car for a while with no issues occurring.

[V70 Graham]

very interesting, given do88 said they drove the kit around on a standard car for a while with no issues occurring.

Mine's not competely standard, RIP kit and Rica 310 remap.....be interesting to see what Saturdays graph looks like.

[Wobbly Dave]

Glad you got the pipe & MAF housing OK

[M-R-P]

I have to say, the difference made by refitting the OE pipe is pretty good. It doesn't have the immediate kick up the arse but that was a symptom of overboost/compressor surge and getting rid of that was the whole point. The power builds very smoothly and pulls really hard after 3-3.5k rpm.

I'm looking forward to seeing the printout from the rollers, it should be pretty good.

[V70 Graham]

Glad you got the pipe & MAF housing OK

So sorry Dave, I do apologise, many thanks for the parts and for the speedy delivery, I very much appreciate your help.

[Wobbly Dave]

Just pleased you got them OK. I wonder if you have a airleak on either the PTC valve or one of the other connectors on the DO88 or if the pipe wasn't seated on the turbo inlet properly??

[V70 Graham]

Just pleased you got them OK. I wonder if you have a airleak on either the PTC valve or one of the other connectors on the DO88 or if the pipe wasn't seated on the turbo inlet properly??

It was all fitted correctly and checked.....and checked, it does say on the product page remapping and/or uprated injectors may be required.

[soothingduck]

Well I leant alot
Thanks all
Hope all is fine with the car.

[Wobbly Dave]

I guess as I already had greens when I changed to a smooth bore cold air feed - it never tripped me up.

[V70 Graham]

.....be interesting to see what Saturdays graph looks like.


I'm looking forward to seeing the printout from the rollers, it should be pretty good.

Wish me luck, booked in at 0900 tomorrow morning :scared:

[V70 Graham]

Update.

An absolute nightmare this morning, I'm not going to publish the figures suffice to say the car is not even putting out stock power :frown:

Over fuelling and still a faint flutter at WOT.

The guy's at Power Engineering went through all the changes I have made to the car since last year and have come up with two possibilities, either the 'cheap' cat I put on the car just before Christmas is blocked or is in some way stopping the exhaust gasses flowing freely or the map I have on the car is no good.

I am going back to them on Friday so they can run the car without a cat to see where we go from here.

Not feeling the love tbh.

[ExternalError]

keep your spirits up im sure you will get it all sorted

[stribo]

I wonder if the engine has compensated for the bigger MAF housing you had fitted and is chucking more fuel in, not realising the standard MAF is now back on. Might be worth disconnecting the battery to reset the ECU. My TCV flutters, but has no detrimental effect to performance, at the RR day yours sounded more like the recirc valve.

[t5 pete]

Update.

An absolute nightmare this morning, I'm not going to publish the figures suffice to say the car is not even putting out stock power :frown:

Over fuelling and still a faint flutter at WOT.

The guy's at Power Engineering went through all the changes I have made to the car since last year and have come up with two possibilities, either the 'cheap' cat I put on the car just before Christmas is blocked or is in some way stopping the exhaust gasses flowing freely or the map I have on the car is no good.

I am going back to them on Friday so they can run the car without a cat to see where we go from here.

Not feeling the love tbh.

bad news graham im sure you will get there in the end but with out posting a graph up its like taking a shot in the dark as to what it happening also does the car rev freely or feel sluggish as a blocked cat or poor flowing I would have thought you would have more symptoms espically if its blocked or collapsed

[oblark]

Graham, do you know what the internal diameter of the maf you are running at the moment ?

[V70 Graham]

It seems to rev freely Pete, not measured the MAF Rob and I've parked the car up for the week now.
Posting graphs will only provoke piss taking and a few dozen more ideas, it boils down to either the cat, map or sale of the car simple as.

[soothingduck]

Could the old bigger maf pipe have caused damage?
Hope you sort it out (i do recognise the pain)

[Harvey]

Sorry that it's not running as it should,hope you do get top the bottom of it.

[ExternalError]

well i know you must be feeling a bit down so watching this will hopefully cheer you up a little http://www.singitkitty.co.uk/#play/YaEEh

[jamesy12345]

Hi Graham, I checked in this morning specifically to see what happened yesterday... Oh bugger, so frustrating for you! One consolation though for it's down on even stock power, it 'should'not be so hard to find the fault. Can't see how a cat would cause rich condition. When my had a mystery misfire I plugged a laptop in and recorded some live data. Any strange readings will stick out like a sore thumb hopefully. Good luck! Sorry to guess from afar, but, are your injectors clean?

[V70 Graham]

I am uploading the graph's and a video in the hope that someone has something that may be able to help with this, we are getting to the end of the road with the car and aren't enjoying it at all at present, selling it would be a shame but it's something we will do if we have to.

Since last years rolling road session the only things that have changed on the car are the following, new map (Rica 310), new recirc valve and actuator (both Forge/checked and adjusted), new Volvo tcv (tried a couple) and a new cheapo downpipe/cat to replace the performance item.

The run yesterday was with the standard Volvo intake pipe work.

The operator did say the cat was getting very hot and smelling also that the car was running rich, saying that the 'chatter' was first noted in September, long before any exhaust items were changed.

The first graph shows the car last year, standard except for the RIP kit which is still on the car and an unknown performance/economy map.

The second shows the car yesterday , down 20bhp though torque has gone up by 12ft/lb

The third shows boost, peaking at 1.35 bar and then holding at 0.9 bar, is this about right for a Rica 310 ?

The last graph shows AFR's....any help deciphering this appreciated.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000082_zpsceaad260.jpg.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000085_zps964acb67.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000085_zps964acb67.jpg.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000086_zps66539b2a.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000086_zps66539b2a.jpg.html)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000087_zpscf8bae31.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000087_zpscf8bae31.jpg.html)

[V70 Graham]

'Chatter' is still present (13sec) run was with standard Volvo intake pipe.


http://youtu.be/hNADy154g9k

[stribo]

To be honest mate, I can't see much wrong with those graphs, other than the peak figures aren't what you want.

[M-R-P]

hot cat, running rich, drop in power slope....

the cat does seem a likely suspect but let's see what everybody else thinks. maybe a chat with Mr. Williams is in order?

[graemewelch]

hot cat, running rich, drop in power slope....

the cat does seem a likely suspect but let's see what everybody else thinks. maybe a chat with Mr. Williams is in order?

im with you on this on martyn. everyone will one here will have a different opinion on here and 99% of it will be guessing which is no good to anyone. thats what i dislike about forums. to much knolodge is dangerous in the wrong hands. tim should be able to advise what route to take. dont give up on the car graham. im sure its a simple fix. if theres anything i can help with youve got my number

[V70 Graham]

.....and how do I get hold of Tim ? Answers on a postcard please.

[jamesy12345]

Shemtek can in touch with Tim, I think. 1.35 is a little higher boost than I would expect - thought they were meant to be 1.2 barg..........0.15 bar is not much though I guess

[Jamest5r]

Re the 4th graph your afrs..... Fueling is perfect upto 3250rpm around the 14.7 area this is what you should expect to see on idle and motorway cruising, however when you come on boost hard ie after 3.5k it's throwing far too much fuel probably less than 10's as the graph doesn't go lower this will be sapping your power massively and washing the bores with fuel.....not good mate my money is on the map obvious from that graph you need to be around 11-11.5 on boost.

[V70 Graham]

Re the 4th graph your afrs..... Fueling is perfect upto 3250rpm around the 14.7 area this is what you should expect to see on idle and motorway cruising, however when you come on boost hard ie after 3.5k it's throwing far too much fuel probably less than 10's as the graph doesn't go lower this will be sapping your power massively and washing the bores with fuel.....not good mate my money is on the map obvious from that graph you need to be around 11-11.5 on boost.

Thanks Jim, could this in any way be linked to the cheap cat I have on the car (just trying to narrow down my options)

[Jamest5r]

Thanks Jim, could this in any way be linked to the cheap cat I have on the car (just trying to narrow down my options)

I would say no but it's so hard to guess what the post cat lambda is doing and if would effect anything on the map is doing what it's programmed to do and knowing Martin everything else has been double checked and serviceable only way to check is put another map on it I'm afraid, you still have the old one or reflased your current one?

[Jamest5r]

I know some people don't like Hamish but at least your car is on the rollers there and can be tested with a few different of the shelf maps you would be surprised how different 2 cars can run on the same map for no obvious reasons

[oblark]

After the pages of imformation on the M4.4 ECU I`ve been reading I think your d088 inlet pipe was the problem.
Now you are running on a standard MAF the ECU is still fueling for a 3" inlet.
I would disconnect the ECU for 24 hours and then try again.

[AndysR]

As above, disconnect the battery for an hour or so and let it relearn from scratch. The boost level is a little higher than I would expect to see for a standard off the shelf Rica map and then it settles to less than what I would expect it to hold. Fueling wise it does seem to be running rich, the most likely cause of the hot and smelly cat, I'd expect to see afr's at no less than 11, a perfect afr level on a well tuned and set up car is 12.5 as this is where the most power is achieved; although you are unlikely to see this on an off the shelf map, from memory my brothers rica on his S70 was sitting at high 11's on the rolling road and I'd have expected yours to be around the same tbh. I can imagine how your feeling about the car but you need to persevere with it as it's a lovely car and you won't find another like it.

[V70 Graham]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will disconnect the battery tomorrow and leave for 24 hours.....was I mistaken in thinking that the ECU would adapt and alter fueling accordingly then ?

[AndysR]

Obviously over time the car will do its best to compensate to abnormalities but if it's on a clean slate it is likely to adapt and settle quicker, I'm not for 1 minute suggesting that this will resolve the fault but it's a good starting point to diagnosing the fault ;)

[stribo]

I wonder if the engine has compensated for the bigger MAF housing you had fitted and is chucking more fuel in, not realising the standard MAF is now back on. Might be worth disconnecting the battery to reset the ECU. My TCV flutters, but has no detrimental effect to performance, at the RR day yours sounded more like the recirc valve.


After the pages of imformation on the M4.4 ECU I`ve been reading I think your d088 inlet pipe was the problem.
Now you are running on a standard MAF the ECU is still fueling for a 3" inlet.
I would disconnect the ECU for 24 hours and then try again.


As above, disconnect the battery for an hour or so and let it relearn from scratch. The boost level is a little higher than I would expect to see for a standard off the shelf Rica map and then it settles to less than what I would expect it to hold. Fueling wise it does seem to be running rich, the most likely cause of the hot and smelly cat, I'd expect to see afr's at no less than 11, a perfect afr level on a well tuned and set up car is 12.5 as this is where the most power is achieved; although you are unlikely to see this on an off the shelf map, from memory my brothers rica on his S70 was sitting at high 11's on the rolling road and I'd have expected yours to be around the same tbh. I can imagine how your feeling about the car but you need to persevere with it as it's a lovely car and you won't find another like it.

I did suggest that yesterday. ;)

[V70 Graham]

I did suggest that yesterday. ;)

You did, thank you, I just thought it would adapt and sort itself out.

[V70 Graham]

Right, battery pulled, will leave it overnight.

Also sourced a Genuine Volvo downpipe/cat from a car being broken, should be with me Thursday, hopefully another thing I can rule out.

[soothingduck]

God this is TENSE :pimp2:

[ExternalError]

Hope you find out the root of the issue and get it sorted it can be a stress having an undiagnosed issue but keep your spirits up and keep at it your car is to nice to just throw in the towel now and get rid.

[V70 Graham]

It does get a bit disheartening when there's a problem that's a pita to diagnose, I'm slowly working through the possibilities in the hope it's found soon.

[soothingduck]

I once rebuilt a 6 cylinder ford cargo in the back alley in the snow because it had work the next day.
Just as I finished (dark by now) the wife told me to come in and get some food and had been for ages.
So I thought I will just turn is over before I go in to eat with the intention of coming out again after.
Anyway just as it fired up the cloth I had been using to wipe my hands shoot up the intake :bounce:
To say I was mad is putting it mildly.
Anyway 3 hours later I drove it to the yard All AOK

[960kg]

I haven`t gone back and read it all but has anyone suggested the obvious and checked for any Error Codes using a scanner!

[V70 Graham]

I haven`t gone back and read it all but has anyone suggested the obvious and checked for any Error Codes using a scanner!

Not connected the car to VIDA Keith but nothing showing on my code reader.

[merc85]

you did well finding a replacemnt dp/cat:B_thumb:

[stribo]

Sorry I couldn't help you out mate, but I may well have your current one off you.;)

[V70 Graham]

you did well finding a replacemnt dp/cat:B_thumb:

I was just very lucky, not gonna count my chickens till it arrives lol

[V70 Graham]

Sorry I couldn't help you out mate, but I may well have your current one off you.;)

No problem mate, I'm sure we'll sort summat out.

[Kingsford G]

Sorry mate,had no time to follow this as a lot been posted in this thread and sorry to hear its still not sorted.Can you list what`s been done so far to save me going thru all the posts,you never know I might have a bright moment.

[iancho]

Just seen this Graham and I'm truly shocked mate, your car was running so perfectly and sweet last time I was in it.

Really gutted for you as I know how upsetting it is when things aren't going well. I wish I could offer some helpful advice mate as you are obviously climbing the walls at the moment :frown:

[tichai]

Hang in there mate. It is still a good car that has decided to have a blonde moment. I can't help thinking you had more air going in than you had going out and that fitting a more free flowing exhaust might have helped to give a better balance?

Then again, I'm a nubcake :D

[V70 Graham]

Connected the battery up again this morning and went for a nice gentle 20 mile drive so the ECU can 'learn' again, just in case the ECU had not recognised that the original Volvo intake pipe had been put back on and was still pushing more fuel in than was needed. I will go for another gentle drive on Thursday just to be sure.

Also spoke with Tim at Kent Volvo Spares and he has wrapped the downpipe/cat for collection today and I should have it tomorrow.

Hopefully by this time Friday I should have some good news, if not I will be looking at the Rica map as that's the only other thing on the car that has changed since last year.

[oblark]

How long did you have the do88 intake pipe on for ?

It could take a few hundred miles for the ecu to relearn the amount of air going through the maf.

[V70 Graham]

How long did you have the do88 intake pipe on for ?

It could take a few hundred miles for the ecu to relearn the amount of air going through the maf.

Really ?

It's been on since Sept last year, I'm not doubting you Rob but how do you know this ?

[ExternalError]

I thought with a reset it took about 20 miles or so

[M-R-P]

There's a procedure somewhere for ME7 where it suggests conservative driving for at least 100 miles, enthusiastic driving for something like 50 miles and then give it a good ragging for a bit.

It only takes a few miles to relearn the closed loop fueling (start/idle/low revs) from what I've seen. I'll try and find the info...

[V70 Graham]

It only takes a few miles to relearn the closed loop fueling (start/idle/low revs) from what I've seen. I'll try and find the info...

It's not the closed loop fuelling I have a problem with, looks like a few more miles tomorrow and Thursday then lol

[M-R-P]

It's not the closed loop fuelling I have a problem with, looks like a few more miles tomorrow and Thursday then lol

I know, it was in response to Stuart's question. :D

[oblark]

There's a procedure somewhere for ME7 where it suggests conservative driving for at least 100 miles, enthusiastic driving for something like 50 miles and then give it a good ragging for a bit.

It only takes a few miles to relearn the closed loop fueling (start/idle/low revs) from what I've seen. I'll try and find the info...

Closed loop - ecu get information from MAF, LAMBDA to govern fueling.

Open loop - ecu ignores maf and lambda and runs off the "map"

[V70 Graham]

Open loop - ecu ignores maf and lambda and runs off the "map"

.....so it's either the non OE cat or map as I thought.

[therat622]

:slap:

[M-R-P]

Closed loop - ecu get information from MAF, LAMBDA to govern fueling.

Open loop - ecu ignores maf and lambda and runs off the "map"

It's not quite that simple with ME7 tho Rob, yes it does work like that to an effect but there's more to it. The "on demand" alters throttle response and torque delivery depending on what it perceives to be the driver's request. This needs to be learned by the ecu and isn't something that is there from the off. This is why, when an ME7 car goes into a dealer and they do a "free software update", as they did with mine after the DIM was fitted, the car always feels smooth and usually gives slightly better fuel economy. In reality, it's running from a "clean" map with no adjustments for driver demand.

When I reset mine, I give it a good thrashing from the start. The ecu sees that I'm demanding fast response and maximum torque and adjusts accordingly giving a much more aggressive drive.

[oblark]

Well it is with M4.4 :)

Been reading up into fitting coil packs instead of have a dizzy.

[ExternalError]

I know, it was in response to Stuart's question. :D

Thanks Martin thats good to know slowly increasing my knowledge every day.

On a side not I am now the proud owner of 5 VXR injectors now just a downpipe off graeme and a remap from Dream3r I think and the car will be sweet

[M-R-P]

Well it is with M4.4 :)

Been reading up into fitting coil packs instead of have a dizzy.
You going standalone for the coil packs Rob? And is there any advantage to 5 expensive coils over one coil and a dizzy?

Thanks Martin thats good to know slowly increasing my knowledge every day.

On a side not I am now the proud owner of 5 VXR injectors now just a downpipe off graeme and a remap from Dream3r I think and the car will be sweet

Looking forward to the outcome from that little lot mate ;)

[ExternalError]

Looking forward to the outcome from that little lot mate ;)

I am to it was 14bhp up on standard map running water injection(no meth on the day), a cat back exhaust, shimed ported and polished head and s60r manifold so its showing promise at the moment I got the injectors so that there is no risk of me capping out my fueling duty cycles with the map and I want a downpipe to free up the exhaust gasses a bit more. I'm toying with the need for a lager intercooler but i'd want something that would just slot in with out to much messing which from what I have seen are at least £600 which is a little more than I would want to spend this year with all the other stuff i'm doing. My target is 320bhp which I think with the things i'm doing it should make but its not a hard fixed target and i'm more concerned with the delivery of the power than the top end figure which is why after reading alot i'm thinking dream3r is the person to speak to because he can tweak the maps depending on what you are looking for.

Just hope Graham gets his sorted, Although other people having problems like this does make me learn a bit by having a read up on various issues and reading other peoples comments.

[M-R-P]

320 should be easily achievable but like you say, it's down to delivery. Mine makes nowhere near that but it drives perfect so there's not much more I'm looking to do to it - maybe a downpipe sometime.

Graham's predicament has got me stumped. I've gone beyond what I know, beyond educated guesswork and I'm now learning more than I'm doing. This is something I don't feel comfortable doing when it comes to someone else's car. Especially when I'm the one that's been fitting and removing bits, there's always the question of weather or not it's something I've done :(

[T5RatherAmusin]

You'd be a fool not to fit the Dp stew!
im doing a front mount to mine now....
you shouldve had An R mani std...
wasn't there a near std t5 the same day as you with bout 3hps less??

[M-R-P]

Kingsford's ex plod made 271 with greens and a catback.

[ExternalError]

thats seems about right if he had greens and a cat back on a std map, thats almost the same as setup i had i was on blues though soon to be vxr's I wasnt running meth that day so the water injection would have lowered my Intake Air Temps a little which would have given me a slight increase but wouldnt have given as much as if i'd have been running meth, the polished and ported head and the manifold are more for when it is maped and the boost is turned up so i wasnt actually expecting much out of that work until it is maped. I brought the car with all this done already as it was the previous owners project and he wanted to get it all setup before mapping it which i respect and is how I want to carry on forward. The only reason I dyno'd it was because i wanted to know what power it was putting out before I started adding things.

Sorry graham for going off topic

[oblark]

You going standalone for the coil packs Rob? And is there any advantage to 5 expensive coils over one coil and a dizzy?




The ME7 coil packs have a 12v supply and 5v triggering voltage, Some very knowledgable people in the states are working on using the dwell angle and 5 spare channels from the M4.4 ecu to trigger the 5v signal supply :)

[stribo]

320 should be easily achievable but like you say, it's down to delivery. Mine makes nowhere near that but it drives perfect so there's not much more I'm looking to do to it - maybe a downpipe sometime.

Graham's predicament has got me stumped. I've gone beyond what I know, beyond educated guesswork and I'm now learning more than I'm doing. This is something I don't feel comfortable doing when it comes to someone else's car. Especially when I'm the one that's been fitting and removing bits, there's always the question of weather or not it's something I've done :(

So you've broken Graham's car.:nono:

[V70 Graham]

So you've broken Graham's car.:nono:

I hadn't thought of sabotage !

I'll put that next on the list of things to check.

[V70 Graham]

Went out for another spin before work, miles since ECU reset now 59.9 will go out again tomorrow.

Hopefully when I get in from work Anne will have received the downpipe/cat to be fitted Friday.

[V70 Graham]

Just in case any of you have set your alarm clocks early tomorrow for the latest update.....don't bother.

Royal Mail estimate my downpipe, which was posted 24 hour delivery on Tuesday, should be with me sometime tomorrow !

If it arrives early enough it will be fitted tomorrow, though Monday looks favorite.

[soothingduck]

Just in case any of you have set your alarm clocks early tomorrow for the latest update.....don't bother.

Royal Mail estimate my downpipe, which was posted 24 hour delivery on Tuesday, should be with me sometime tomorrow !

If it arrives early enough it will be fitted tomorrow, though Monday looks favorite.


They are the only delivery company that can't seem to work out my doorbell. I have to go coolect nearly everytime.
THEY SUCK

[960kg]

The ME7 coil packs have a 12v supply and 5v triggering voltage, Some very knowledgable people in the states are working on using the dwell angle and 5 spare channels from the M4.4 ecu to trigger the 5v signal supply :)

Hi, I cannot see how the Dwell Angle is anything to do with Coil Packs as it is the measurement that the Contact Points are closed for!.........we don`t have Contact Points in the distributor anymore!...or am i up the wrong tree??

[oblark]

Hi, I cannot see how the Dwell Angle is anything to do with Coil Packs as it is the measurement that the Contact Points are closed for!.........we don`t have Contact Points in the distributor anymore!...or am i up the wrong tree??

Half the time the imformation about fitting ME7 coils to a 850 goes straight over my head.

I`m just waiting for the wiring diagram :)

[M-R-P]

Just in case any of you have set your alarm clocks early tomorrow for the latest update.....don't bother.

Royal Mail estimate my downpipe, which was posted 24 hour delivery on Tuesday, should be with me sometime tomorrow !

If it arrives early enough it will be fitted tomorrow, though Monday looks favorite.

bloody royal fail.

[960kg]

There's a procedure somewhere for ME7 where it suggests conservative driving for at least 100 miles, enthusiastic driving for something like 50 miles and then give it a good ragging for a bit.

It only takes a few miles to relearn the closed loop fueling (start/idle/low revs) from what I've seen. I'll try and find the info...

Although ME7 it is no different to 4.3, 4.4 or even the EMS 2000 fuel system on the X40`s they are all adaptive ECU`s and learn how you drive.

As i don`t use my V70 much in Winter the battery is often taken off to just keep it charged so of course the ECU loses all what it has learnt and i have found that by just ragging it with respect it does respect me and gives me excellent performance in just three days of 5mls each day, a trip up the M way at just 70mph for 10mls each way seems all i need to do and it drives fine and reacts instantly to performance or economy.
Constant slow carefull driving seems a no go.

[V70 Graham]

Downpipe arrived and fitted, car back on the rollers.

Slightly better results though the car is still over fuelling.

I will be attempting to have the previous map reloaded on Monday, though I have now been told I possibly have the wrong BCS on the car.

Back on the rollers Tuesday.....if it's not sorted that car will be for sale.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000089_zps3c1d2b9d.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000089_zps3c1d2b9d.jpg.html)

[960kg]

If it helps Graham!.........in the pic. is the correct part number for the BCS/TCV and the way it is connected for your model.

The number is printed on the TCV so you can check.

[M-R-P]

Its the Bps im suspicious of mate, not the bcs.

[V70 Graham]

Its the Bps im suspicious of mate, not the bcs.

My mistake sorry.

[claymore]

Downpipe arrived and fitted, car back on the rollers.

Slightly better results though the car is still over fuelling.

I will be attempting to have the previous map reloaded on Monday, though I have now been told I possibly have the wrong BCS on the car.

Back on the rollers Tuesday.....if it's not sorted that car will be for sale.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/graham1326/P1000089_zps3c1d2b9d.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/graham1326/media/P1000089_zps3c1d2b9d.jpg.html)

How does the car drive? if it drives ok, then why worry about Dyno figures?

[V70 Graham]

How does the car drive? if it drives ok, then why worry about Dyno figures?

The car drives fine Colin, and tbh I'm not really concerned about bhp figures, what I am concerned with is the rich running which isn't doing the car any good, shouldn't the AFR's be around 11.5/12.0 ?

[claymore]

My AFR is between 10.5 and 11 on full boost on the Yellow/Black and the Green ones a bit lean at 12 on full boost, I wouldn't be worried about rich running on full boost, at least you know it's not going to melt a piston, as long as its mid 14s when cruising I wouldn't be in the least bit worried, but that's just me.

[t5 pete]

The power curve looks great the afr on the max power run looks brilliant untill 5.5k then has a sudden drop obviously something is miss reading or mapped incorrect as its a fair adjustment/increase In fuel when it hits that point instead of following the steady curve are you running correct injectors also when your car it surging/chattering did they see what rpm that was at

[V70 Graham]

The power curve looks great the afr on the max power run looks brilliant untill 5.5k then has a sudden drop obviously something is miss reading or mapped incorrect as its a fair adjustment/increase In fuel when it hits that point instead of following the steady curve are you running correct injectors also when your car it surging/chattering did they see what rpm that was at

The chattering seems to have gone now, I'm putting that down to the dodgy cat/dp

[S70T5Chris]

What remap has it got on it currently?

[V70 Graham]

What remap has it got on it currently?

Rica 310 Chris

[S70T5Chris]

Rica 310 Chris

The lower green line is the afrs?

What is the lower red line on the graph?

Where did the map come from? If it's a genuine Rica 310, I'd be massively surprised if the map is the problem. Rica maps are anything but rich.

It's strange how it is too lean until 3750rpm, then suddenly drops to too rich. Being an ME7 it's much more complicated, and will protect itself from self destruction.

Just a thought? - Could the ECU be sensing it's running too lean, and intervening to protect itself? I may just be talking sh it though?

[V70 Graham]

The red line is today's run, the green is last Saturday's run

[S70T5Chris]

ah ok my bad.

Its way too lean until nearly 4500rpm. I'd be more concerned about than that, than where it begins to run rich.

Where'd you get the map from?

[Wobbly Dave]

Did you have a remap prior to the RICA?

[V70 Graham]

Did you have a remap prior to the RICA?

I did Dave, from PWCars (who have recently closed) I am going back to GRN Monday as they have the old 'map' file and will restore it for me.

[Wobbly Dave]

Did the car run OK on the previous PWC map - what power did it make?

[V70 Graham]

Did the car run OK on the previous PWC map - what power did it make?

Similar power but the AFR's were a lot better, I don't have a printed graph but saw it on the screen at Power Engineering' on Friday.

The car runs well now, as it did then.

I spoke to the guy who did the PWCars map on Friday as well.

[Wobbly Dave]

So what sparked the change to RICA?

[stribo]

He was scared my gay gold car would have more power, either way I've always beaten him on torque, though he beats me on talk. :hilarious

[V70 Graham]

So what sparked the change to RICA?

That's exactly what Anne wants to know lol, Big G took me out in his C70 and it seemed a better drive.

[graemewelch]

Probobly stupidity the same as me

[V70 Graham]

.....though he beats me on talk. :hilarious

Rearrange the following words.....

Pot black kettle the calling

[V70 Graham]

Probobly stupidity the same as me

Spot on mate, hopefully easily sorted though.

[Wobbly Dave]

Don't worry about it Graham. We've all done it - including me, putting stuff on that doesn't work as well as we'd hoped. My net result is I am increasingly cynical about most mods.

Be curious to see what if anything will happen should you put the Do88 pipe back on once the map is swapped back.

I've had 4 custom maps for my 19T. RICA was my first & Autotech was my last (and still current).

I hope you get where you want to be, with your own mods soon.