Polybushing Anti-roll bar bushes WITHOUT dropping the subframe!

[JamesT5]

You did read the title correctly - I have proven today that the one thing people see as the 'show stopper' for Polybushing their Anti-roll bar on the P2 S60/V70 without dropping the subframe, is in fact not a show stopper at all. I discovered it out of desperation and through my inquisitive nature whilst taking the newly installed (by the garage) IPD polybushes for the Anti-roll bar off, as they needed copper greasing before being reinstalled.

The problem is that most people (including myself up until today), think that the 14mm bolt that is closest to the footwell of the car is impossible to take out with out dropping the subframe. Apparently, even the Haynes Book of Lies says drop the subframe but I've proven that is not necessary. A few months ago, some one on here said to me on this subject, "if you find a way to do it I'd like to know how!". Well.........

Before I go on, I don't deny that IF you have the equipment and the expertise then dropping the subframe makes things easier and quicker. But, like most people if you're like me and have only average tools and average mechanical knowledge, there is a way to remove the bolts from the subframe and then you'd cut the old bushes and clamp off and put on the after market polybushes on.

So how do you do it? Well, you need a 14mm returnable ring spanner, long arms (preferably), patience and time plus some nimble fingers. You need to loosen the 14mm bolts mm by painful mm (it does take a while but it can be done by this method). When the bolts are loose enough to turn with your fingers, the front one is fairly straight forward, the back one takes a little technique...... you have to put your arm around the back of the strut and your wrist/hand over the top of the steering link gaitor (see photo), then get a finger in with your other hand from the side and gently turn the bolt using both hands. There is enough room for the bolt to come all the way out - it's tight but it doesn't hit the footwell as I always thought it did. Ok, some photos.....

http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s562/_JamesT5/P1011192_zps9805ac27.jpg (http://s1306.photobucket.com/user/_JamesT5/media/P1011192_zps9805ac27.jpg.html)

And just to prove I'm not having you on, here's one side of the ARB with no bushing on it at all......

http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s562/_JamesT5/P1011194_zpsdf6e740a.jpg (http://s1306.photobucket.com/user/_JamesT5/media/P1011194_zpsdf6e740a.jpg.html)

Irrespective of whether you have an after market bushing or the original, the issue has always been seen as the bolts and not being able to take them both out. I've proven today that it can be done although it takes some patience and time but will save you a garage bill!

A word of advice for the less mechanically minded such as myself, make sure there is an equal gap between the ARB and the subframe before you torque the bolts up again, otherwise the ARB will bang in to the subframe going over bumps. The ARB swings left and right so you need to make sure it's centred before tightening the bolts up

By the way, I think I went slightly overkill with the can of copper slip but the squeaking although still there, is reduced and unlike the garage attempt I'm no longer left with loud knocking noises over bumps....... :D

http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s562/_JamesT5/P1011196_zpsc2cb1af4.jpg (http://s1306.photobucket.com/user/_JamesT5/media/P1011196_zpsc2cb1af4.jpg.html)

:beer: :B_thumb:

[stephenevans99]

Job well done James !!

[V70 Graham]

Well done James, it looks like you have proved, with a lot of time and patience that this can be done.

[oblark]

You will regret copper slipping the ARB bushes.

When I fitted mine I did the same and copper slipped the ARB bushes only to find everytime I went around a corner the ARB slid through the bushes and knocked on the wishbones. So I cleaned off the copper slip so the bush can "grip" the ARB.

[merc85]

You will regret copper slipping the ARB bushes.

When I fitted mine I did the same and copper slipped the ARB bushes only to find everytime I went around a corner the ARB slid through the bushes and knocked on the wishbones. So I cleaned off the copper slip so the bush can "grip" the ARB.

Do the poly bushes on the arb make much difference?

[JamesT5]

You will regret copper slipping the ARB bushes.

When I fitted mine I did the same and copper slipped the ARB bushes only to find everytime I went around a corner the ARB slid through the bushes and knocked on the wishbones. So I cleaned off the copper slip so the bush can "grip" the ARB.

According to Chad, the bushes should be greased.

[JamesT5]

Do the poly bushes on the arb make much difference?

I think so, there is slightly less roll and front end feels a little firmer. I've got to get the wishbones powerflexed fairly soon as both my front wheels are 'snaking' under heavy breaking or acceleration because the bushing is starting to de-laminate from the casing!

[oblark]

Do the poly bushes on the arb make much difference?

It`s hard to tell as I`ve poly bushed the wish bones which stiffened the suspension :)

[merc85]

It`s hard to tell as I`ve poly bushed the wish bones which stiffened the suspension :)

same here lol, doh.....

[oblark]

According to Chad, the bushes should be greased.

From my experience they shouldn`t be greased :)

[JamesT5]

From my experience they shouldn`t be greased :)

Most suppliers recommend it so I'll see how it goes.

[oblark]

Most suppliers recommend it so I'll see how it goes.

That all you can do :)

[JamesT5]

Tested it out today on the road and I've definitely got flatter cornering although there is still some squeaking going on at times. Overall, I think it's well worth the effort!

[Gold 'N' Brown]

That seems like a bit of a piss poor design oversight by Volvo :buttkick: The only other car I've ever changed ARB bushes on had a bulge in the bar to locate the bush against so it would stay in place, and obviously once clamped down it couldn't move side to side.

Might be a bit pikey, but what about putting jubilee clips around the bar either side of one bush so it can't move?

[T5REU]

Got to do my rear arb bushes. Is it as straight forward? Is it possible just to replace the rubber bushes with one ebay ones or do I need to get the poll bush kit with brackets

[JamesT5]

Got to do my rear arb bushes. Is it as straight forward? Is it possible just to replace the rubber bushes with one ebay ones or do I need to get the poll bush kit with brackets

You can't buy just the rubber bushes, if you want rubber you'll have to buy a whole new Anti-roll bar from Volvo as the bushes come vulcanised to the bar. I know, annoying isn't it! :mad:

Buy the IPD ones from Parts For Volvos and fit them yourself, it won't be easy but worth it in the end. :B_thumb:

[partsforvolvos.com]

powerflex include copaslip with all of their bush kits.

the only polybushes i have seen prematurely fail have been those not greased, so it caused the bush to be broken up by the friction.

[reesky]

This is a brilliant write up, thanks. Just the other day I saw that mine was beginning to split and I thought "How on earth will I get to that?!"

Reesky
(Visiting from www.volvoforums.org.uk)

[V70-R-T5]

You can't buy just the rubber bushes, if you want rubber you'll have to buy a whole new Anti-roll bar from Volvo as the bushes come vulcanised to the bar. I know, annoying isn't it! :mad:

Buy the IPD ones from Parts For Volvos and fit them yourself, it won't be easy but worth it in the end. :B_thumb:

For those that want to stick with rubber,I fitted THESE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-S60-S80-XC90-V70-rear-stabiliser-anti-roll-bush-mount-set-bushing-x-2-/121152953610?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Cars+Year%3A2001%7CCar+Make%3AVolvo%7CModel%3 AV70&hash=item1c35475d0a) to my T5, (not the easiest job but do-able). Don't worry that they are coming all the way from Latvia, they arrived within 3 days and had them both done in about two and a half hours and at 10.99 it beats the £176 +VAT from Volvo for a new rear ARB assembly.

[JamesT5]

For those that want to stick with rubber,I fitted THESE (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volvo-S60-S80-XC90-V70-rear-stabiliser-anti-roll-bush-mount-set-bushing-x-2-/121152953610?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Cars+Year%3A2001%7CCar+Make%3AVolvo%7CModel%3 AV70&hash=item1c35475d0a) to my T5, (not the easiest job but do-able). Don't worry that they are coming all the way from Latvia, they arrived within 3 days and had them both done in about two and a half hours.

Thing is, why would you want rubber when polyurethane is far superior? Seems a bit of a backwards way of doing things to me....

[V70-R-T5]

True but it depends what your looking for, performance or comfort. As I am sure this forum is read by all types of drivers, some of whom are not looking to drive their car at brake neck speed round every corner and consequently doesn't need the expense of polyurethane. Poly bushes over time may need re-greasing if they start to squeak. Rubber is more durable which means that you shouldn't have to replace it as often. My post gives an option not an instruction but I suppose you could pose your question to Volvo.

As you'll read elsewhere in the forum, I will be poly bushing the R (and probably the wife's T5 too) so I can see your point.

[JamesT5]

True but it depends what your looking for, performance or comfort. As I am sure this forum is read by all types of drivers, some of whom are not looking to drive their car at brake neck speed round every corner and consequently doesn't need the expense of polyurethane. Poly bushes over time may need re-greasing if they start to squeak. Rubber is more durable which means that you shouldn't have to replace it as often. My post gives an option not an instruction but I suppose you could pose your question to Volvo.

As you'll read elsewhere in the forum, I will be poly bushing the R (and probably the wife's T5 too) so I can see your point.


Just because you Polybush doesn't mean to say you will want to drive the car at 'break neck speed', and in fact could be to increase comfort, i.e. less body roll in general which is better for the vehicle occupants.

By the way, as oblark correctly mentioned earlier in the thread, greasing the polybushes for the ARB is a mistake because they squeak if you do. I ended up doing exactly as Rob suggested suggested might have to happen, I ended up pulling them off, degreasing them and refitting them - no more squeaks!

[V70-R-T5]

I'll bow to your superior knowledge James although rubber, with it's softer properties over polyurethane, is less likely to cause NVH although most modern cold pour polyurethane bushes behave OK. There is of course noticeably less body roll if polyurethane bushes are fitted.

As with regards to lubing bushes, I wouldn't lube a rubber bush but a smear of silicone grease on a poly bush should be ok as when it dries it looses some of the slip properties.

[graemewelch]

id fit rubber to. but id lower the subframe rather that struggle. its only a few bolts. to much polyurathane kills the ride completly. ive done my wishbones as they are a known weakness but arb bushes dont realy wear out that quickly. 20 pand bit of rubber every time

[M-R-P]

As you'll read elsewhere in the forum, I will be poly bushing the R (and probably the wife's T5 too) so I can see your point.

I can help with that...

Front wishbone, rear bush fitting (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?50908-Front-wishbone-rear-bush-fitting-easy!)

front wishbone, front bush (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?38699-How-to-polybush-your-wishbones-while-changing-shocks)

The others are easy :)

[Gold 'N' Brown]

True but it depends what your looking for, performance or comfort.

I'm with you on that. People on car forums (I'm generalising of course) often seem too eager to jump on the performance part bandwagon, assuming that any aftermarket "uprated" part must be superior. And of course that simply not always the case. Quite aside form the fact that it's "horses for courses" and dependant on what you want and need, there's also the consideration that not all aftermarket parts are actualy any good, even if you pay over the odds. I can't speak for products for Volvos, but I've heard of stories of poly bushes failing very quickly on other cars, even ones from so-called reputable suppliers.

[JamesT5]

I've got a colleague who has almost finished Powerflexing his Vauxhall, he said he'll never go back to rubber and the the harder ride gives the whole care a fresh feel. That says everything to me!

[M-R-P]

My front wishbone powerflex bushes have started squeaking :(

[Harvey]

My front wishbone powerflex bushes have started squeaking :(

I think that's down to the remap.......:uglyhamme

[M-R-P]

I think that's down to the remap.......:uglyhamme

Sadly no, it's just got this annoying rubber-on-metal squeak as I'm driving along. Been doing it for a week or so but I only tracked it down yesterday.

I can't hear it when it's on boost, so that's ok :)

[JamesT5]

My front wishbone powerflex bushes have started squeaking :(

Perhaps you shouldn't grease them? I know the advice but speaking to Jamie at PFV about this, he stated to me that his suppliers all offer different advice. I greased my top engine mount bushing and have had no issues there, but my ARB bushes sounded like a group of mice singing in chorus until I took them off, degreased them and refitted them. They squeaked a little (but far less than before) for a few days then settled down as they bedded in.

Interestingly, the company claiming to be a 'Volvo Specialist' managed to fit the lower metal plate upside down - something corrected when I reinstalled them.

Martin, perhaps you could remove the bushes, how I don't know but perhaps the reverse of installation, degrease the whole assembly and refit. I appreciate however that pressing the bushes back in without any grease may be a bit of a feat.

By the way, I'll be fitting Powerflex Black Series to my wishbones, especially as a few months back they launched the front control arm rear bushing in Black as well. I think I'll be in for a rock hard ride but excellent front end geometry! :D

[M-R-P]

I've fitted and remover polys on Volvos, BMWs, and a few other cars now so removing the bush won't be difficult but I can't be arsed with the effort. I'm gonna inject silicone grease into the contact points and report back :)

[JamesT5]

I've fitted and remover polys on Volvos, BMWs, and a few other cars now so removing the bush won't be difficult but I can't be arsed with the effort. I'm gonna inject silicone grease into the contact points and report back :)

Ok, let us know how it goes because if it's a characteristic of these bushes then it may be useful feedback for the manufacturers.

I know that Powerflex do their down blue coloured grease, I have some of the that it what looks like little syringes which I've never used, I'll be saving that as well as buying some more for when I get the bushes fitted.

I know one thing, I won't be fitting the control arm bushes myself, I'll be paying to have that done but somewhere or someone that actually knows what they're doing and won't bust the driveshaft getting the arms off. GRN is my first choice given the reputation on this forum.

[M-R-P]

Shame you're not closer James, it's a two hour job for me now lol.

[JamesT5]

Shame you're not closer James, it's a two hour job for me now lol.

It would take you less time to Powerflex them than it would take me to get to Poole?

Another complication I've got to think about, and that is that my control arms are aftermarket ones so that metal bar maybe the wrong shape to take the bushing. I seem to recall flogging the bars from my old arms to silverhorse and my old wishbones to you, so I'd pick up a knackered pair from a breakers, perhaps, and then just swap the units over. Saying that, there is no way to know until the bushes are off the bar, it may be ok.

[M-R-P]

It would take you less time to Powerflex them than it would take me to get to Poole?

Another complication I've got to think about, and that is that my control arms are aftermarket ones so that metal bar maybe the wrong shape to take the bushing. I seem to recall flogging the bars from my old arms to silverhorse and my old wishbones to you, so I'd pick up a knackered pair from a breakers, perhaps, and then just swap the units over. Saying that, there is no way to know until the bushes are off the bar, it may be ok.

If the bar is the wrong shape, I can fix it with an angle grinder:)
Why not go for the PPS version you bought last time? it comes with it's own bar and is easier to fit. Grab a pair of them and whatever rear bushes you want to fit and pick a day in the new year, when the weather warms up a bit and we'll sort something out :) The wishbone will need to come off either way so there's no point in buying another set from a scrappy.

[JamesT5]

If the bar is the wrong shape, I can fix it with an angle grinder:)
Why not go for the PPS version you bought last time? it comes with it's own bar and is easier to fit. Grab a pair of them and whatever rear bushes you want to fit and pick a day in the new year, when the weather warms up a bit and we'll sort something out :) The wishbone will need to come off either way so there's no point in buying another set from a scrappy.

I'm really keen on Powerflex Black series, I want the hardest Polybush I can find and that ticks all the boxes for me although I appreciate your thought process behind the other option.

Whatever happens, it will be a pre-MOT job that will have to be done as it may well fail the MOT because the bush is de-laminating from the control arm. The MOT is due in March.

[M-R-P]

I'll fit whatever mate :)
We'll sort something for March then.

[Gold 'N' Brown]

I've got a colleague who has almost finished Powerflexing his Vauxhall, he said he'll never go back to rubber and the the harder ride gives the whole care a fresh feel. That says everything to me!

But how is that relevant to your V70? You are comparing different cars, potentially different products (which may vary in quality), plus his personal opinion about what is "better" for him.

As a personal example, one of the best things I ever did on one of my old 205 GTIs years ago was replace the rear beam mount bushes with Group N spec, which is solid nylon bushes on the front mounts and machined alloy spacers on the back to reaplace rubber sandwhich bushes. It obvioulsy had an effect on NVH (you wouldn't be able to tell if you ever had a rear wheel bearing failing as there was a permanent hum from the back of the car from road noise being transmitted), but the more solid feel made the whole car feel much better put together. I'd happily do the same again. Conversely, I replaced the front strut top mount donuts with a slightly harder compound than OE spec, as it was "the in thing" and everyone swore by it, but I absolutely hated it and felt it ruined the ride quality up front and made it more crashy on our terrible UK roads.

What does that have to do with Volvos? Sod all of course (neither does a Vauxhall)! Given the amount of experience with poly bushes on Volvos amongst the members on here I'm sure you won't be disappointed. But remember that the modifying world is rife with snake oil, BS claims and half arsed poor quality products, so always do your homework and employ some healthy cynicism. You pay your money and make your choice :D

EDIT: apologies for going off on a tangent.
EDIT 2: Why am I apologising? It's normal for any topic on VPCUK to go off topic!
EDIT 3: Here's a token LOL. I'm never going to fit in on VPCUK until I learn to litter my posts with LOL (LOL) :uglyhamme

[Gold 'N' Brown]

Ok, let us know how it goes because if it's a characteristic of these bushes then it may be useful feedback for the manufacturers.


Is it not accepted as normal that most poly bushes squeek to some extent? I've certainly heard my fair share of reports across many types of car over the years of loitering on various forums.

I always thought (but could be completely wrong) that it was becuase rubber bushes flex more and so rotational movement is taken up by that flex without the bush actually moving, whereas with poly bushes the parts rotate against the bush rather than the bush flexing, thus creating the squeek.

What I've written above probably makes sod all sense anywhere except in my own head!

[graemewelch]

Is it not accepted as normal that most poly bushes squeek to some extent? I've certainly heard my fair share of reports across many types of car over the years of loitering on various forums.

I always thought (but could be completely wrong) that it was becuase rubber bushes flex more and so rotational movement is taken up by that flex without the bush actually moving, whereas with poly bushes the parts rotate against the bush rather than the bush flexing, thus creating the squeek.



What I've written above probably makes sod all sense anywhere except in my own head!


this also my thoughts but i couldnt be bothered to write it down.

[LeeT5]

That seems like a bit of a piss poor design oversight by Volvo :buttkick: The only other car I've ever changed ARB bushes on had a bulge in the bar to locate the bush against so it would stay in place, and obviously once clamped down it couldn't move side to side.

Might be a bit pikey, but what about putting jubilee clips around the bar either side of one bush so it can't move?

Not adviseable, as the jubilee clips will rub against the ARB bushes and over time this will damage them.

[M-R-P]

Not adviseable, as the jubilee clips will rub against the ARB bushes and over time this will damage them.

A washer and then a jubilee clip? :D

[LeeT5]

A washer and then a jubilee clip? :D

Too pikey for my liking. TBH there is nothing wrong with the OE set up. My understanding is that they should be 'lightly' greased (not with copper slip) with lithium spray grease.

however, I would check with Volvo first as some bushes have 'self lubricating' properties and do not need lubricating. If you do, then the grease you use may react with the bush and cause adverse conditions for the bush to do its job and degrade its performance. Just slapping a load of copper slip on it doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid.