Cold start problems: is injector cleaning an answer?

[Mr D]

Afternoon all; it's been a while (sorry about that) life gets in the way sometimes.

So the V70 is back to being smooth and a joy to drive around after getting all the drop links replaced along with a failed wishbone and bushing at the front left was cause _really weird_ pulling problems under braking. But I'm not here to bore you with that - I'm here to bore you with a question about injector cleaning (and potential replacement).

Basically while the car is brilliant out and about, fair mileage with a lot of round town (and occasionally whoosh whoosh) turning out 43.5mpg on the D5 I have. Starting it from cold (completely, overnight cold) is another matter; it's a struggle and sometimes just a no. As much as I hate to use the stuff I have been forced on 3 occasions (over 2 years) to use the magic "startgas" in the airbox to get it started for something urgent (like getting it to the garage). The battery is good, the starter is good (a couple of minutes turning the engine before the power was even affected - Hi five battery!)

To just clear up that I haven't been daft or scaremongered in to this conclusion: last year's service we change the glow plugs and checked the leads, this year we changed the glow plugs for volvo genuine parts - no change. I've also started running Rhino (http://www.dieselrhino.co.uk/) and the twice yearly service has covered general wear and tear.

That brings me to my question (s).

I've read this (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?29403-Injector-Cleaning) and I assume the process is much the same for a Diesel?
I've found this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380072659398?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) on recommendation and they have pretty good feedback on their service.
I've looked in to injector replacement and nearly cried due to the cost
If I need to send the injectors away (for some reason I thought there was someone that did this in Southampton) has anyone done an M-R-P and photographed the process?


If there are some more options before starting down this increasingly expensive route please do tell me but reading here and elsewhere (gasp!) is leading me to the suggestion that this might actually be the problem.

Thanks guys and gals hope you have some thoughts.

~Mr D

[V70 Graham]

Have a look at this (post 15) :

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?44183-A-few-little-jobs-to-finish-off-with&highlight=

[Mr D]

Helpful lads, really professional - bit out of the way (heathrow) and while he suggested getting the terraclean done he thought testing the glo-plug voltages and the relay for them first. Does anyone know about what numbers I should be seeing and where I should be measuring from - oddly enough I have the kit to do tests like this I just need to know how to go about doing them and the right figures.

Cheers

[silverhorse]

Afternoon all; it's been a while (sorry about that) life gets in the way sometimes.

So the V70 is back to being smooth and a joy to drive around after getting all the drop links replaced along with a failed wishbone and bushing at the front left was cause _really weird_ pulling problems under braking. But I'm not here to bore you with that - I'm here to bore you with a question about injector cleaning (and potential replacement).

Basically while the car is brilliant out and about, fair mileage with a lot of round town (and occasionally whoosh whoosh) turning out 43.5mpg on the D5 I have. Starting it from cold (completely, overnight cold) is another matter; it's a struggle and sometimes just a no. As much as I hate to use the stuff I have been forced on 3 occasions (over 2 years) to use the magic "startgas" in the airbox to get it started for something urgent (like getting it to the garage). The battery is good, the starter is good (a couple of minutes turning the engine before the power was even affected - Hi five battery!)

To just clear up that I haven't been daft or scaremongered in to this conclusion: last year's service we change the glow plugs and checked the leads, this year we changed the glow plugs for volvo genuine parts - no change. I've also started running Rhino (http://www.dieselrhino.co.uk/) and the twice yearly service has covered general wear and tear.

That brings me to my question (s).

I've read this (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?29403-Injector-Cleaning) and I assume the process is much the same for a Diesel?
I've found this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380072659398?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649) on recommendation and they have pretty good feedback on their service.
I've looked in to injector replacement and nearly cried due to the cost
If I need to send the injectors away (for some reason I thought there was someone that did this in Southampton) has anyone done an M-R-P and photographed the process?


If there are some more options before starting down this increasingly expensive route please do tell me but reading here and elsewhere (gasp!) is leading me to the suggestion that this might actually be the problem.

Thanks guys and gals hope you have some thoughts.

~Mr D

Had exactly the same problem on my Shogun. Good batt. Good glow plugs. Good everything.
Problem was a relay. A big 100amp relay that sends the power to the glow plugs. I replaced this and hey presto.
Now, I don't for one minute think that a solution for a Volvo problem could be as simple as a £5 relay!!, but worth doing a bit of investigation before you spend big money on injectors, terraclean, glows, etc

[M-R-P]

That's a good idea especially since I know that Mr-D has a bag of relays...

Oh Sam - I could have polybushed your wishbones for about 40 quid and you'll never need to worry about them again ;)

[JimmyBurnWorld]

What year is your D5?

I have a V70 D5 (2003) which occasionally (not enough to be a nuisance or warrant sorting) has trouble starting when cold. Occasionally it'll fire up and sound like it's running on 3, other times it'll take 10 seconds of cranking to get going. 98% of the time starting in the cold it starts on the button.

The D5's around 2003 are prone to injector issues which are not cured by sending it off to someone to run rocket fuel through them for a couple of hours. Not only that, if you disturb the injectors you should, by the book, replace any hard fuel lines that you disturb as they should not be re-used. This is because they are designed to deform slightly when they are first tightened forming a seal to the 1000+ bar (15,000psi) fuel pressure. When they are disturbed they cannot deform further when you do them back up.These aren't cheap.

If you have sticky injectors this will cause poor starting. Another symptom my car exhibits is that it will occasionally cut out when you try to pick up the throttle from idling for a while.

I carried out a leakback test using a home made rig: Link to post (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?45204-D5-Injector-Leakback-Test&highlight=leakback)

The conclusion of this was that there was no injector in particular that was leaking back excessively and de-pressurising the fuel rail (= low rail pressure = bad starting/ idling).

With these facts my new Volvo indie has diagnosed that my injectors might be ok, and that it might be the fuel rail pressure sender. Something I'm just about to research procuring and replacing.

Hope this helps. Sorry for the essay. In short - If it is the injectors its unlikeley that you'll be able to re-condition or fix them by cleaning, and in trying to you could be in for a big bill for pipes + labour only to find you're no better off. Check everything else. The £5 relay check sounds worth while.

[silverhorse]

That's a good idea especially since I know that Mr-D has a bag of relays...

Oh Sam - I could have polybushed your wishbones for about 40 quid and you'll never need to worry about them again ;)

OOOH Martin! You are on 9999 posts:P
Can we have a really insightful and fascinating snippet of your infinite wisdom for your 10000th!!!

[Harvey]

Helpful lads, really professional - bit out of the way (heathrow) and while he suggested getting the terraclean done he thought testing the glo-plug voltages and the relay for them first. Does anyone know about what numbers I should be seeing and where I should be measuring from - oddly enough I have the kit to do tests like this I just need to know how to go about doing them and the right figures.

Cheers
What you really need to test is the amps each glow plug is pulling dc clamp meter required ,does the car start ok for the rest of the day when it been warmed up,if it is ok good chance it some thing on the glow plug side or you have a air leak in the diesel line filter drains back to tank ?.
If you remove the injectors they can be tested before any work is done on them.

[silverhorse]

OOOH Martin! You are on 9999 posts:P
Can we have a really insightful and fascinating snippet of your infinite wisdom for your 10000th!!!

He's saving up for a corker!!!

[Mr D]

What you really need to test is the amps each glow plug is pulling dc clamp meter required ,does the car start ok for the rest of the day when it been warmed up,if it is ok good chance it some thing on the glow plug side or you have a air leak in the diesel line filter drains back to tank ?.
If you remove the injectors they can be tested before any work is done on them.

The car runs sweet as a nut for the rest of the day. Stop and start also no problem. Cold start makes for an unhappy Volvo. I know the plugs are good so I'll go on a relay hunt later and see what I can find - if it's an electrical problem it might even explain why the doors unlock (unattended) after 5 minutes - starting to sound more and more like a dud earth or similar somewhere

Thanks for suggestions all - more research required for now

[M-R-P]

If you're not doing owt today Sam, pop round and we can have a look at it. I'm waiting-in for Virgin Media to deliver my new super hub.
I still have a working boot lock to try in your tailgate too.

[Mr D]

Sorry mate - totally missed your reply, not getting notifications for some reason; I'll worry about it later. My current plan, having spoken to the helpful chaps people here and the TerraClean lad _was_ going to be changing out the 60 amp glow plug relay. Two problems

- getting to it is a ball-ache because it's _under_ the engine compartment fuse board which means you have to power down and remove the whole thing to get underneath
- replacing it isn't as easy as I'd hoped because Halfords don't stock relays, Europarts can't get them and ebay is bereft of auctions for this part and I really don't want to go to volvo as they will want an animal sacrifice in exchange (or lots of money I can't remember which)

So if anyone is breaking/has broken a volvo v70 phase 2 and just _happens_ to have a whopper 60 amp (A picture I saw somewhere has it with metal fins all over it) relay kicking around I would like to speak with you. This might not even fix it but I deeply suspicious about the injectors being the cause when it runs so happily the rest of the time.

Cheers all

PS Need to visit you about some body work soon Mr P - maybe when the weather sucks less!

[M-R-P]

No probs mate, you have my number ;)

Might be worth starting a "Wanted" thread for that relay.

[silverhorse]

Sorry mate - totally missed your reply, not getting notifications for some reason; I'll worry about it later. My current plan, having spoken to the helpful chaps people here and the TerraClean lad _was_ going to be changing out the 60 amp glow plug relay. Two problems

- getting to it is a ball-ache because it's _under_ the engine compartment fuse board which means you have to power down and remove the whole thing to get underneath
- replacing it isn't as easy as I'd hoped because Halfords don't stock relays, Europarts can't get them and ebay is bereft of auctions for this part and I really don't want to go to volvo as they will want an animal sacrifice in exchange (or lots of money I can't remember which)

So if anyone is breaking/has broken a volvo v70 phase 2 and just _happens_ to have a whopper 60 amp (A picture I saw somewhere has it with metal fins all over it) relay kicking around I would like to speak with you. This might not even fix it but I deeply suspicious about the injectors being the cause when it runs so happily the rest of the time.

Cheers all

PS Need to visit you about some body work soon Mr P - maybe when the weather sucks less!

Blimey, just seen price for a replacement:shockedbi http://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts/electrics/relais-glow-plug-system/1036122/

Get a multimeter in there to narrow down what is wrong before you spend big money.....

[Mr D]

Bad news - after a string of "no starts" I dropped it off to Volvo in Hamworthy - diagnostics back this morning are that the injectors are fubar *sob* and losing pressure. I have had an astronomical quote for repair and the "Worthy Fuel Injectors Garage" in Southampton I had suggested to me has a dead line...

...suggestions very much appreciated, I could buy a new car for the amount I have been quoted =(

[Yosser]

It's unlikely to be all 5 injectors, so you need to establish which injectors are leaking. A leak off test is a good place to start.

They are not hard to replace and can be bought used for £50ish on ebay There are reports on VOC that reconditioned injectors won't work, so good used are your best bet.

[M-R-P]

Jeez Sam, you didn't take it to those robbing twonks at Snows did you?

Hang fire - I may know somebody...

[silverhorse]

, I could buy a new car for the amount I have been quoted =(

Can't be that bad can it??

[M-R-P]

Can't be that bad can it??

£1700 :yikes:

[Mr D]

£1700 :yikes:

What he said...:splat:

[M-R-P]

Still waiting on a reply for a 2nd. hand set mate.

[silverhorse]

£1700 :yikes:
Are you seriously telling me that 5 injectors plus labour costs 1700 quid??!!
That is fecking ridiculous. Is that a serious, realistic quote?
In the words of Victor Meldrew: I Can't Believe It!!!
Honestly, my flabber is well and truly gasted. Is that Volvo taking the p1ss, or is that a serious price?
Have I said, I can't believe it?
I can't believe it

[M-R-P]

Seriously mate, that quote came from the same place that replaced my DIM for £732.50 and didn't even screw the fekker in!

The only proper Volvo dealership in the area :(

[silverhorse]

I can't believe it. Glad I have a petrol. For the 5 years you have better MPG than me, that saving is fecked out of the window when you get a bill like that. I can't believe it.

[silverhorse]

Hang on. I have injection on my T5. Bugg3r!

[M-R-P]

You don't normally see a D5 with an injector problem. Shame really 'cos it's a pretty sweet example of a 2002 P2 tbh.

[silverhorse]

Surely the fitting is a reasonably straight forward DIY job. How much is a single injector? I hope Mr D only has 1 faulty injector! I am genuinely shocked about this. Bl00dy hell. I might not sleep tonight!!

[M-R-P]

Poor old Sam lol. I've had big, expensive problems with mine but he has annoying, niggleing problems with his. You gotta love his determination!

His clutch hasn't gone yet...

[silverhorse]

His clutch hasn't gone yet...
Not until you've just mentioned it!!:worried:

[Mr D]

Not until you've just mentioned it!!:worried:

That was my v40...then someone ran in to me and wrote it off less than 4 weeks later

[Mr D]

Just spoken to the lads at MB Fuel (http://www.mbfuel.co.uk/contact.htm) and they were surprised at the idea that _all_ of the injectors would need replacing (I'm with them there). The attractive thing about taking it to these guys is that they can test and replace only the ones which are a problem rather than doing the whole lot - half the price of getting Snow's to do it...

...anyone had any experience with them or advice one way or the other? Ebay is looking a bit hit and miss...

[LeeT5]

Helpful lads, really professional - bit out of the way (heathrow) and while he suggested getting the terraclean done he thought testing the glo-plug voltages and the relay for them first. Does anyone know about what numbers I should be seeing and where I should be measuring from - oddly enough I have the kit to do tests like this I just need to know how to go about doing them and the right figures.

Cheers

Its not volts you want to worry about its amps. Each glow plug draws approx 15-20amps. If youve already replaced the glow plugs then i would check the amp draw at the negative lead on the battery. If all your getting is around 6 - 10 amps when you first switch on then i would go straight to the Glow plug relay.

I doubt very much that you have an injector fault.

If the amp draw is good then the next place to look is the EGR valve. They gum up and will deffo cause cold start problems. Once you get the car going they warm up pretty quickly as the EGR is directly connected to exhaust piping. Then they unstick themselves and the car runs ok. Worst case senario is the car can actually cut out if the EGR gets really bad. Common enough problem and affects ALL diesels.

[Mr D]

It's unlikely to be all 5 injectors

Turns out only the one was a problem and that was replaced with a short day's worth of work at a company called MB Fuels in Eastleigh. Good lads and helpful too. To put it in perspective Snows: £1700 to replace all 5 injectors, MB Fuels: £170 to test and recondition one

Started first go (started so quick I had forgotten that that was how it was supposed to work). Very, very pleased - which means I can use the saved pennies for new wheels come the nice weather - yay!!!!

[V70 Graham]

Glad your all sorted, and at 10% of the price !

[M-R-P]

Fair play Sam told you snows were a rip off!. We'll have to look at those lock solenoids soon ;)

[jotter22]

That's a good idea especially since I know that Mr-D has a bag of relays...

Oh Sam - I could have polybushed your wishbones for about 40 quid and you'll never need to worry about them again ;)

could you start a new thread with jobs and prices listed.
I think i could get you to do a lot of jobs on my C70 not because i cant but because i am LAZY!

Tony.