Major misfire - I could really do with some good news....

[Alex.]

Hi Guys,

Hopefully someone can tell me that my engine is not knackered!

I was driving up a long hill on the A55 with a car in front doing 70, when he pulled over I accelerated reasonably hard in fifth as there was a Merc up my chuff!
All of a sudden the check engine light starts flashing and there is a loss of power, accompanied by some smoke but I'm not sure if it is more than usual as she does drink a bit.
I pulled over into a layby with the engine running really rough and read the codes. P0301, misfire on cylinder 1. I limped to the next services as I didn't like the exposed layby and waited for the RAC man.

He swapped the coil packs and plugs around but the misfire stayed on 1. The plug for 1 did look rather manky with some hard light coloured deposits. 2 was better but still a bit light. He called it a day and arranged recovery from Wales back down to Kent!
Now I have her home, I tried swapping the injectors around between 1 & 2, the misfire stayed with 1. :help:

Right now I am thinking something major is wrong internally, either head gasket, valves or rings. I'll be buying a compression tester tomorrow to see if that is a problem...

Any thoughts what it might be? Something else to look for? Any help, advice or abuse gratefully received! :cool:

Alex.

Edit:- Might be useful saying that she is a 1999 C70 T5 ME7.

[Alex.]

Actually, I say it's a misfire, but it is not firing at all!
If I take the connector for no 1 injector off, no change to engine note. Take no 2 connector off and she starts running on 3!

Alex.

[JamesT5]

I had a misfire issue months ago and mine was coil packs, but as you have ruled that out by swapping the coils around, do a valve pressure test and see if the dodgy valve is at the same pressure as the others. My bet is a valve issue (i.e. broken).

If the valve test shows 0 pressure or little pressure on cylinder 1 then the valve is knackered.

Let me know how you get on.

Regards

James

[Harvey]

Was the spark plug damaged on its end ?.
The loom to the coil packs can get damaged and short to earth.
Have you tried the coil pack with the spark plug on a outher cylinder loom plug ?,a short to earth in the plug.
Have you tested the plug to the no1 coil pack is there any voltage at the loom plug.

[Alex.]

Good call on the wiring to either the coil or injector, I'll check all the wiring out too.

For a compression test, what is the correct procedure?

Remove all 5 spark plugs.
Screw in tester.
Fully depress throttle pedal.
Turn over engine for 4-5 revolutions.
Read gauge.
Reset gauge.
Redo test.
Move to next cylinder.


Is that about it? Anything else?

Ta for advice.

Alex.

[M-R-P]

As above, "misfire on cylinder.." indicates something's dead in the circuit for that cylinder. My first bet would be the coil pack but since you've ruled that out, it'll most likely be the will be the wiring.

[Alex.]

As above, "misfire on cylinder.." indicates something's dead in the circuit for that cylinder. My first bet would be the coil pack but since you've ruled that out, it'll most likely be the will be the wiring.

That raises the question of where are the sensors and what are they measuring!

When the code P0301 is thrown, does the ME7 system actually detect if the mixture in the cylinder is burning or just that the electical circuit to the plug/injector is intact?

Alex.

[960kg]

That raises the question of where are the sensors and what are they measuring!

When the code P0301 is thrown, does the ME7 system actually detect if the mixture in the cylinder is burning or just that the electical circuit to the plug/injector is intact?

Alex.

Here are some answers to your questions eg: Where is the code measured?

Don`t freak out at all the suggestions it`s just process of elimination.

[Alex.]

Thanks for that info, most informative!

Off to get a compression tester this afternoon and the elimination will continue...

Alex.

[t5 pete]

Before a compression test take the plug out and put it onto the coil pack either lay the end of the plug close to.the rocker cover or use insulated plyers and get some one to crank it over if there is a electric spark/contact from plug to head you know the coil pack and wireing are fine and its then a internal problem and probley a broken or burnt valve head

[Harvey]

Any luck finding out the problem yet ?.

[Alex.]

Any luck finding out the problem yet ?.

Well, I think the polite term is 'CRAP!'
While waiting for the missus to get home and help with checking for a spark, I thought I'd try out my new compression tester.

Cylinder no 2 was 150 psi, I must be using the tester about right.
Cylinder no 1 had no compression at all, didn't even register! I took it all apart and tried again with the same results.

Methinks a valve has dropped! :rolleyes2

Alex.

[JamesT5]

Read my misfire threads on the P2 forum, it shows everything I went through to sort out my misfire. Hopefully there will be something in there you can use, and yes your pressure test process is correct as far as I know.

Regards

James

[Alex.]

Think I'm going to need a new head!

How much should I expect to pay for an ME7 T5 head?

Alex.

[JamesT5]

Well, I think the polite term is 'CRAP!'
While waiting for the missus to get home and help with checking for a spark, I thought I'd try out my new compression tester.

Cylinder no 2 was 150 psi, I must be using the tester about right.
Cylinder no 1 had no compression at all, didn't even register! I took it all apart and tried again with the same results.

Methinks a valve has dropped! :rolleyes2

Alex.

Looks like my valve pressure theory was right then. You may not need a new Head, but the engine will need taking apart and a new valve put in and re-seated or whatever they do. This is where my mechanical knowledge is very very thin....

Regards

James

[RiPsTa33]

I would'nt buy a head until you take yours off as it could very well be repairable. On the other hand if it has dropped a valve you could be looking for a complete engine if there's piston and bore damage.

[Harvey]

If the valve had droped the spark plug would be damaged/bent on the end.

Found this worth a look before you spend to much cash.

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?44992-broken-it-dam-n-blast

[Alex.]

Had a chat with a garage yesterday and they advised the same thing. Take my head off and have a look, then go from there.
As there is no damage to the plug, or no sound of contact when the engine is turned over, it is likely that a valve has just burnt.

Still, a bill for £800 plus VAT is never good....

Looking at that thread, do T5s have a habit of breaking bits of the valve off? It would explain the lack of other apparent damage and total lack of compression.

Alex.

[glock19]

A chipped off valve could cause loss of compression.

Has happened before but it's an anomaly

[960kg]

Had a chat with a garage yesterday and they advised the same thing. Take my head off and have a look, then go from there.
As there is no damage to the plug, or no sound of contact when the engine is turned over, it is likely that a valve has just burnt.

Still, a bill for £800 plus VAT is never good....

Looking at that thread, do T5s have a habit of breaking bits of the valve off? It would explain the lack of other apparent damage and total lack of compression.

Alex.

Hello Alex, ....are you the Alex that used to have a T4 and did a dyno at Newington because if you are then this is Keith from Hythe that had the `98 T4, do you remember?

anyway your motor did you use 95ron?........and for how long have you had the car years or miles?

Keith

[Alex.]

Hi Keith,

I am that Alex, did we happen to meet at Lipscombes? I haven't met many T4 owners and get a bit hazy on long ago details! :)
Unfortunately that lovely T4 met the rear end of a BMW a couple of years ago.

I replaced her with this T5 about 23 months and 20k miles ago. I have only used 95ron, but try to stay away from supermarkets. The T4 did recommend 98ron but I thought that the T5 could happily cope with 95.
As she might have been running a bit lean, that may be explained by weak petrol, or so said the mechanic at a local garage that I have since been told is a bit of a rip off merchant!

My next port of call is back to Newington for a chat, as that garage with the dyno has been recommended to do the head work.

Alex.

[960kg]

Hi Keith,

I am that Alex, did we happen to meet at Lipscombes? I haven't met many T4 owners and get a bit hazy on long ago details! :)
Unfortunately that lovely T4 met the rear end of a BMW a couple of years ago.

I replaced her with this T5 about 23 months and 20k miles ago. I have only used 95ron, but try to stay away from supermarkets. The T4 did recommend 98ron but I thought that the T5 could happily cope with 95.
As she might have been running a bit lean, that may be explained by weak petrol, or so said the mechanic at a local garage that I have since been told is a bit of a rip off merchant!

My next port of call is back to Newington for a chat, as that garage with the dyno has been recommended to do the head work.

Alex.

Hi,
I am so pleased it`s you, Alex. It is some 3yrs now that we used to talk online, remember i lived in Rainham and worked at Sittingbourne.

Pleased your still using that garage i sold my T4 before i could get the chance to visit the rollers.

I have a `97 V70 T5 remapped now and very pleased with it.

I do hate to say this but your down fall was 95ron instead of 98. When the head is off you will find a burnt lump out of the exhaust valve.
T4`s go exactly the same way, it only takes about a year and the problem starts. The carbon from the dirtier fuel collects around the valve stem and it won`t shut properly then a bit burns or snaps off it.

There are lots of threads on the others sites where t4`s have met there doom early.

I know the fuel is expensive these days but compare just 5p more per litre and £800 at the end of the year for damage plus the lesser performance.

I know i always stick my neck out and say these causes and i get slagged off for it all the time but the T5 is the same engine as the T4 with just a pot missing.

So a relatively easy fix, would be interesting to see a pic. when the heads off.

Regards Keith

[JamesT5]

Hi,
I am so pleased it`s you, Alex. It is some 3yrs now that we used to talk online, remember i lived in Rainham and worked at Sittingbourne.

Pleased your still using that garage i sold my T4 before i could get the chance to visit the rollers.

I have a `97 V70 T5 remapped now and very pleased with it.

I do hate to say this but your down fall was 95ron instead of 98. When the head is off you will find a burnt lump out of the exhaust valve.
T4`s go exactly the same way, it only takes about a year and the problem starts. The carbon from the dirtier fuel collects around the valve stem and it won`t shut properly then a bit burns or snaps off it.

There are lots of threads on the others sites where t4`s have met there doom early.

I know the fuel is expensive these days but compare just 5p more per litre and £800 at the end of the year for damage plus the lesser performance.

I know i always stick my neck out and say these causes and i get slagged off for it all the time but the T5 is the same engine as the T4 with just a pot missing.

So a relatively easy fix, would be interesting to see a pic. when the heads off.

Regards Keith

I remain skeptical that 95 RON fuel instead of 98 RON fuel is the cause of this sort of problem. If 95 RON fuel is totally unsuitable for the T4 engine then Volvo would have printed it in big black wiriting on the manual and to be honest, Volvo wouldn't be stupid enough to build an engine that would break from using standard fuel in the first place. In fact, if you look at the manual for the V70 (no doubt the S40/V40 manual states the same), it even says 91 RON fuel is acceptable.

What's more likely is that during the manufacturing process, there were faults with the forging of the metals that were made in to valves, and the broken valves are down to metal fatigue, poor infrequent servicing (not necessarily by the current owner I must add), and frequent hard labouring (red lining) of the engine. 95 RON fuel is perfectly suitable and acceptable in all modern petrol engines, and to suggest that by using fuel with an extra 3 RON will prevent this valve breaking problem does seem a little far fetched.

Regards

James

[Alex.]

I remain skeptical that 95 RON fuel instead of 98 RON fuel is the cause of this sort of problem. If 95 RON fuel is totally unsuitable for the T4 engine then Volvo would have printed it in big black wiriting on the manual and to be honest, Volvo wouldn't be stupid enough to build an engine that would break from using standard fuel in the first place. In fact, if you look at the manual for the V70 (no doubt the S40/V40 manual states the same), it even says 91 RON fuel is acceptable.


Actually, the phase 1 T4 does have writing in the fuel filler cap stating only to use 98 RON fuel. The phase 2 T4 recommends 98 but can use 95. It is common knowledge among the T4 owners, that only using 95 RON will eventually cause damage, I had hoped that the T5 would be less susceptible.

Alex.

[Alex.]

Hi,
I am so pleased it`s you, Alex. It is some 3yrs now that we used to talk online, remember i lived in Rainham and worked at Sittingbourne.

Pleased your still using that garage i sold my T4 before i could get the chance to visit the rollers.

I have a `97 V70 T5 remapped now and very pleased with it.

So a relatively easy fix, would be interesting to see a pic. when the heads off.

Regards Keith

Hi Keith,

Yep, I'm still floating around, more on bike forums than Volvo's but I pop in from time to time!
I used BD Engineering in Newington just to do a couple of dynos runs on my T4 between engine swaps (that is a whole different saga!) and it turns out that it was probably remapped. It had 209BHP with low compression on one cylinder, it's just occurred what a coincidence that is! The T4 just kept going though, burning more than her fair share of oil...

I'll talk to BD about the T5 head, maybe get a sneaky remap too while the missus isn't looking...

Alex.

[M-R-P]

Actually, I recall flicking through the handbook for my T5 and it does recommend using 97/98ron fuel but says that 95 will have no adverse effect.
After seeing the recent episode of 5th gear, I'm even more sceptical of the higher octane fuels than before.
From what I can tell, they can't offer that much more protection than the high - end 95ron stuff such as shell fulesave.
My car did 130k with Leicester plod and I bet they never used BP ultimate. She's now at 193559 miles and I can't often afford the good fuel. Am I on borrowed time? I know the car doesn't go noticeably quicker on 98ron, it just drinks more of it lol.

[960kg]

Actually, I recall flicking through the handbook for my T5 and it does recommend using 97/98ron fuel but says that 95 will have no adverse effect.
After seeing the recent episode of 5th gear, I'm even more sceptical of the higher octane fuels than before.
From what I can tell, they can't offer that much more protection than the high - end 95ron stuff such as shell fulesave.
My car did 130k with Leicester plod and I bet they never used BP ultimate. She's now at 193559 miles and I can't often afford the good fuel. Am I on borrowed time? I know the car doesn't go noticeably quicker on 98ron, it just drinks more of it lol.


I remain skeptical that 95 RON fuel instead of 98 RON fuel is the cause of this sort of problem. If 95 RON fuel is totally unsuitable for the T4 engine then Volvo would have printed it in big black wiriting on the manual and to be honest, Volvo wouldn't be stupid enough to build an engine that would break from using standard fuel in the first place. In fact, if you look at the manual for the V70 (no doubt the S40/V40 manual states the same), it even says 91 RON fuel is acceptable.

What's more likely is that during the manufacturing process, there were faults with the forging of the metals that were made in to valves, and the broken valves are down to metal fatigue, poor infrequent servicing (not necessarily by the current owner I must add), and frequent hard labouring (red lining) of the engine. 95 RON fuel is perfectly suitable and acceptable in all modern petrol engines, and to suggest that by using fuel with an extra 3 RON will prevent this valve breaking problem does seem a little far fetched.

Regards

James

I told you i always get slagged off for it but i have been reading every single day for over three years everybody`s tales of problems with the high performing Volvo`s having exhaust valves burn out and even break at there seats and it always happens on number 1 or 2 cylinder not on others and is closely associated with 95 ron fuel as all performance engines should use 98ron to prevent detonation etc. If you used 95ron and just ambled around without using the turbo then fair enough you should be ok but when the turbo is used you should be on 98ron.

Because of the cooler running at the No.1 end due to the close proximity of the water pump which pulls the cooled air from the rad at the bottom of the engine the combustion may not be quite what it should be and as said the carbon will form on the exhaust valve stem due to dirtier 95ron and will build up until the valve won`t shut properly and it will burn out, with 98 ron the combustion is more complete and cleaner with less deposit.

The HLM280 and HLM310 are mapped depending on fuel ron used 280 for 95ron and 310 for 98ron........ Simples

It is very unwise to use the power and use 95ron as the ECU will also knock back the timing so you get a less performing engine all round complete with less mpg.

Volvo`s do pride themselves on excellent quality metals used in production and there is no other reason why the exhaust valves should burn out on cylinders 1 or 2 i haven`t yet see it happen to the others 3 or 4 or 5.

But when you do some searches you will notice that in all cases 95ron has been used never 98ron.

Why do you think my first words to Alex were........what ron do you use and for how long?

[M-R-P]

960 - I wasn't having a dig at you or your advice. In fact, I hadn't seen your post regarding the fuel until after I had posted.

It's been mentioned by a few people that Shell fuelsave has the same clean burn characteristics of the 98ron but without the detonation resistance of the higher octane stuff. Is it the quality/clarity of the fuel that cokes-up the valves or premature detonation of the lower octane? This is something I know very little about and would like to learn, so any info you can offer would be gratefully received.

[960kg]

M-R-P...i know you wasn`t popping at me i just wanted your attention as you said was you on borrowed time because of the fuel issue.

Volvo have to say there motors can run lower octane as just say you can`t find a garage with 98/97ron what do you do call the AA, so they say 91ron it CAN run on but 98ron IS the prefered. It may take a year or 18 months before you have a problem but what i have read over the years about this subject the law of averages you will get it if you continually use the not recommended fuel.

Look at it another way the `98 4cylinder T4 is a very fussy motor and needs everything correct to give out it`s high 200bhp considering it is only 1855cc that is more than 100bhp per litre. My Lotus Cortina`s were 115bhp for 1558cc and that was twice the figure of the normal 1500 at 59bhp. We get complacent with the power these modern motors have but the fuel has gone down from the old 5 Star Leaded 100 octane to Unleaded at 95ron or your 98ron so something has to give and the giving is using high clean octane fuel which deposits less carbon because it gives a better combustion pattern less liable to form carbon.

A good example is why was the European 200bhp 1855cc T4 using 98ron not sold in America....because they didn`t have that high octane they only used 89,91,92,95 octane for there large capacity engines which don`t need high octane. The X40 on sale for America was the T3 2litre coded engine which only produced 165bhp and the recommended was 95ron. Ok, so they tune there motors and add additives so they can use the high powered low capacity engines.

I have mainly followed T4`s in the forum`s but as said a T5 has only one pot more and is the same design, so when i see a problem like Alex has i straight away think 95ron used and you will be surprised how often this problem arise.

Here are some sites read especially the first three properly. I know it`s USA but there Premium apparently is 91 octane so 95 ron will take you just a bit longer to get the same result.

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49775

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20126

http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/121976-cause-of-burnt-valve-theory/

http://volvoforums.com/forum/volvo-v70-13/1998-v70-burnt-valve-2-cylinder-43155/

http://volvoforums.com/forum/volvo-s70-33/99-s70-t5-burnt-exhaust-valve-60739/

http://volvoforums.com/forum/volvo-s70-33/99-s70-glt-missing-2-cylinder-31671/

http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33725


Keith

[Harvey]

Well this thread has started something,I must say I do only ever use shells V power after reading all this I won't change.
I do hope Alex gets his engine sorted out without to much hassle.

[JUDGENINJA]

I'm not a Vpower slave, I'll use anyone's. but all 850-V70, T4s all have recommended 97+RON in the manuals...