Tuning S60 2.4T T5

[MattM]

Hi Guys,

What are the tuning options for a 2005 S60 T5? I was thinking of a SS Cat back exhaust system and a remap. Is this a good start and what are the typical gains?

Thanks.

[graemewelch]

you can easily see 250 bhp with a stg 2 map. exhaust sports cat and ic. i have all of these. i may be tempted to sell as some one recently rear ended my car.

[MattM]

I should hope so, it's 260bhp stock :p

[t5_monkey]

Ignore everything you hear about dynos etc.....

firstly ... torque matters more in the real world.

Secondly... dynos are a lottery.

For comparisons sake you'll get about 285 from a remap, which will give you a power to weight of aboug 185bhp per tonne - which should give you an idea of what you'll keep up with.

[MattM]

This looks pretty good - http://www.rica-uk.com/viewcar.aspx?vehicle=154

[T5frankie]

its a 2.4 so 300bhp is easily achievable

[MattM]

How do I easily achieve 300bhp? remap and cat back?

[T5frankie]

How do I easily achieve 300bhp? remap and cat back?

yeah mate but don't worry about the bhp too much its the torque improvements that you will love after a remap, it will pull much harder

[LiamT4]

These 2.4 T5s are supposed to respond well to mapping.
Panelfilter, 200cell race cat and remap should get you over 300bhp easily. Front mount intercooler is supposed to help as well.

[jardon]

No brainer having seen the results of the offerings from Rica. MTE map, full exhaust and water/methanol injection = 350+ bhp on anybodys dyno and nearer 400bhp on the road. A fellow 2.4 owner (Ashok - username Pyaap on T5D5) developed a custom map with MTE about a year ago. It made 350bhp on a dyno and that was pulling 8+ degrees of ignition advance compared to road runs (rising IAT's on dyno relative to road). The Rica map would be throwing money away for this engine. Stage 2 MTE or the custom map with water/methanol injection.

[graemewelch]

i meant 348 bhp. mines runs rica stage 2 with 100 cell sports cat and stainless exhaust with straight through silencers and fmic with std inj. all i can say is it drives mint. pulls like a train in every gear. cant recomend rica highly enough and me personaly would do your own home work as theres a lot of opinions on various tuners. ive only had rica and there custermer service is 2nd to none. ive also ran stg1 with a fmic and standard exhaust and again it drove very well and pull well in all gears. with these few mods i got 28mpg around the doors and 39mpg on a run

ive only commented on my personal experience of what ive got, im not intrested in any debates about rica vrs mte. just hope this dosnt turn into a pointless t5d5 thread

[MattM]

Thanks guys. How does would a remap effect reliability ?

[MattM]

Sent an email to these guys http://www.race-tune.com/ about a remap, here is what they said:


There are some very good options for the T5 as it is a brilliant engine capable of a lot of power! We generally design the remap based on the individual customer requirements so we aim towards all out power or a blend of power and economy. With the T5 it is not generally possible to get significant economy improvements so we tend to opt for a power map with an emphasis on low end torque as the turbo spools relatively late 2800rpm. Conservative maps will give you 290bhp and full power maps with no modification to any other components will be around 310bhp with a 25% increase to torque. I used to drive a 2006 S60 T5 with a full power map and it would wheel spin in 4th gear. Full Volvo VIDA diagnostics are also included and if your car is automatic we reset the gearbox adaption at the same time. The price is £450 inc VAT and you would be in safe hands, we've done around 5000 Volvo remaps!

race tune is actually the same as http://www.pwcars.co.uk/ who I hear good things about and who are 2 minutes from where I work in slough.

[jardon]

Thanks guys. How does would a remap effect reliability ?

The extra torque will wear engine mount bushes more quickly. Brakes will probably be fine but if you exploit the extra oomph a lot then uprated pads are a good idea. K24's are not bombproof turbos though it seems a bit of a lottery - some failing early and others withstanding many hours of track abuse. I wouldn't be concerned about reliabilty if mapped appropriately but bank on the wear and tear components having a shorter life if you drive it like you stole it. If mapped to make maximum power then 99 octane fuel is a must and I would shorten your oil/filter/spark plug change intervals.

[t5_monkey]

The extra torque will wear engine mount bushes more quickly. Brakes will probably be fine but if you exploit the extra oomph a lot then uprated pads are a good idea. K24's are not bombproof turbos though it seems a bit of a lottery - some failing early and others withstanding many hours of track abuse. I wouldn't be concerned about reliabilty if mapped appropriately but bank on the wear and tear components having a shorter life if you drive it like you stole it. If mapped to make maximum power then 99 octane fuel is a must and I would shorten your oil/filter/spark plug change intervals.

What he said - all my bushes were shot after 57k when I poly-bushed recently.

I change the oil every 6 months... apart from that it's regular servicing.

[hamish]

Hi,

The later 2.4 T5 tune really well and with a decent remap you should see more out of a 2.4 T5 than you get out of most S60R's ! We have been working with Autotech Motorsport Sweden for the last 3 years and their Volvo Petrol Turbo Tuning is undoubtably some of the best in the world and is certainly leagues better than the stuff we got from Rica.

Have a look at the dyno sheet below this is from a 55 reg V70 2.4 T5 that we tuned for a friend of mine. The car was a completely standard ex police driver training car and had done a reasonable mileage it was in good order and didn't appear to have suffered too badly in the hands of Plod! The figures are corrected to DIN and we were using our big fan so IAT's were not a problem. The car produced good stardard power (as they do on V Power) at 275hp and with only an Autotech remap the peak power is now 2 hundredths of a hp short of 320hp. If you look you will see that the AFR is much improved and the 60 ftlbs increase in torque is almost all the way through the rev range. Not at all shabby for a completely standard car with just a remap.

11620

Regards,
Hamish.
www.hlmtuning.co.uk

[MattM]

Quick question guys. Would you get a remap if it didn't include a rolling road before and after.

Hamish I've sent you a PM ;)

[hamish]

Quick question guys. Would you get a remap if it didn't include a rolling road before and after.

Hamish I've sent you a PM ;)

How can you be a tuner without a rolling road ? :smile:

Always best to email me on hamish@hlmtuning.co.uk

[jardon]

Quick question guys. Would you get a remap if it didn't include a rolling road before and after.

Hamish I've sent you a PM ;)

Yes.

[jardon]

How can you be a tuner without a rolling road ? :smile:


The best maps I've had/have were from a tuner that never uses a dyno.

[hamish]

The best maps I've had/have were from a tuner that never uses a dyno.

On road mapping is fine but you really do need to go on a dyno before and after to see if you have made any power and torque.

[t5_monkey]

Dynos don't determine how it feels to drive on a daily basis.

[hamish]

Dynos don't determine how it feels to drive on a daily basis.

True. But they will give a power and torque figure.

[LiamT4]

I'd say that if you haven't got any way of measuring your afr, then getting it on a dyno is a must, even if its been mapped on the road, it would then be best get it on a dyno to make sure its ok.

[MattM]

Been reading how tuning on a dyno isn't that great and that on the road is best? If this is the case how are those who just 'stick' a map on without either not run into problems?

[hamish]

Been reading how tuning on a dyno isn't that great and that on the road is best? If this is the case how are those who just 'stick' a map on without either not run into problems?

The only people who say dyno tuning isn't that great are people who don't have a dyno !! On road mapping isn't always possible for example with bikes and single seat racecars. On road mapping can also be increadibly dangerous with some very high speeds. We have the option of using the dyno and/or the road !! It staggers me how some of these "hobby flashers" don't seem to get into more trouble without a dyno, diagnostics or even a road test.

Regards,
Hamish.

[LiamT4]

Both have benefits, but mapping on a dyno can't be that bad after all companies like norris designs and M A devolopments use dynos to map a lot of cars and they build some pretty fast cars.

The big downside with live mapping on a road is that it should really be done on a track or airfield, becasue your going to need to use all of your revs and gears to get it how you want and doing that on the road would be a bit dodgy.

[jardon]

We use Bruntingthorpe when Marco comes over - the 2 mile straight is good for 7000rpm in 4th. Agree that using a road is taking a risk. Bruntingthorpe charged us £55 each for all day recently so we got unlimited laps for testing/logging. We had the pit rooms for waiting and working. I don't know any "hobby flashers" and would avoid any such business like the plague. I don't buy that dyno tuning gives optimal on road performance from a WOT or part throttle driveability point of view but could be a useful diagnostic tool. The load conditions and temperatures we see on dynos differ greatly - especially influential with ME7+ vehicles (torque on demand). I had my car tuned by somebody with before/after dyno and had it removed a few months later to be replaced by an MTE stage 1. There was no comparison - using a dyno is no guarantee of quality but having one may enhance the tuning firms image. Just my experience.

[LiamT4]

It annoys me that bruntingthorpe let you use the track for mapping purposes, but weren't interested when i tried to organise a trackday so a few of us could use the 2 mile straight.

Gits! lol

[AndysR]

It annoys me that bruntingthorpe let you use the track for mapping purposes, but weren't interested when i tried to organise a trackday so a few of us could use the 2 mile straight.

Gits! lol

I'd love to go for a legal head to head against a few others...

[LiamT4]

I'd love to go for a legal head to head against a few others...

I tried last year, but they weren't interested unless there were lots of cars and preferably paying spectators.

Maybe try again next year.

[AndysR]

I tried last year, but they weren't interested unless there were lots of cars and preferably paying spectators.

Maybe try again next year.

Maybe we could lower the inter forum fences for one day. I'd be up for it, I'd do a day at brunters for a few fast straight runs over a track day as I'd find that more appealing, but then that probably puts me in the minority :( lol

[jardon]

It annoys me that bruntingthorpe let you use the track for mapping purposes, but weren't interested when i tried to organise a trackday so a few of us could use the 2 mile straight.

Gits! lol

It's a great place. Planes dotted about and 700bhp range rovers testing etc. The police rocked up to do some driver training and we were there until 10pm. The straight is very long/wide but thank god for braking cones as it's hard to judge when the Sharp right hander is going to appear. I think Don Norchi (Kalmar Union) booked it so may be worth a call his way for advice. Ashok (Pyaap on T5D5) also has experience of booking there I think.

[LiamT4]

Maybe we could lower the inter forum fences for one day. I'd be up for it, I'd do a day at brunters for a few fast straight runs over a track day as I'd find that more appealing :)

Airfields are good for the novice drivers first track experience as they tend be very wide with lots of run off, then if people get more into it they can start doing proper tracks.

Me, i just fancied a meet where we could look at some nice cars and also get the chance to legally see what our cars could do down the straight (paid for of course)
If everyone had used one sat nav then we could have seen who got the fastest speed, taking away the inacuracies of everyones speedo.

[LiamT4]

It's a great place. Planes dotted about and 700bhp range rovers testing etc. The police rocked up to do some driver training and we were there until 10pm. The straight is very long/wide but thank god for braking cones as it's hard to judge when the Sharp right hander is going to appear. I think Don Norchi (Kalmar Union) booked it so may be worth a call his way for advice. Ashok (Pyaap on T5D5) also has experience of booking there I think.

Been there a few times in the past, have a mate who works on the super guppy.

[AndysR]

Airfields are good for the novice drivers first track experience as they tend be very wide with lots of run off, then if people get more into it they can start doing proper tracks.

Me, i just fancied a meet where we could look at some nice cars and also get the chance to legally see what our cars could do down the straight (paid for of course)
If everyone had used one sat nav then we could have seen who got the fastest speed, taking away the inacuracies of everyones speedo.

Yeah I've always wanted to know what mine would do with the later half of the speedo...

[MattM]

Doesn't Don traditionally put the MTE map on without any dyno? What I'm getting at is quite a few reputable places will map your car but don't have anyway to gauge the results.

1. Maping on the raod
2. Maping with a dyno
3. Just a map

That's the order I see it in terms of best results?

[t5_monkey]

It's a flash load so no custom mapping.

That said if you get custom Mods, Marco of MTE is over once or twice a year to do custom mapping and that's when you'd get the map tweaked to suit your car.

If I was doing what you were, I'd get the stock Map and then get it custom Mapped when Marco comes over.

the standard map should cope with a new FMIC and will be set up for 3" downpipe etc.. already.

If you get it custom, you may want to get your turbo polished ported and clipped by Owen developments (Jardon had this done) and possibly Water injection too... that should give you significantly more power once it's custom mapped.

[Wobbly Dave]

My autotech map is an excellent custom map. & Yes it was done on the HLM dyno. I know from both Torque results & the data from the HLM dyno that the intake temps do not require WI.

Having seen results on the dyno from other tuned 2.4 T5s that you should give HLM some serious consideration.

[t5 pete]

little bit off topic but been thinking about getting a v70r are they a 2.5 or are they a 2.4 also i have heared about a few cases of cracked liners with these so how do they stand with tuning

[MattM]

My autotech map is an excellent custom map. & Yes it was done on the HLM dyno. I know from both Torque results & the data from the HLM dyno that the intake temps do not require WI.

Having seen results on the dyno from other tuned 2.4 T5s that you should give HLM some serious consideration.

Just waiting for Hamish to respond to a PM, but I'm very keen on going to HLM. It's not the closest to them (almost 2 hours away) but there aren't many places near me (Milton Keynes).

[Wobbly Dave]

Also Wegal - http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/member.php?u=2690 is worth speaking to as he has a 2.4 t5 auto tuned by HLM.

[T5frankie]

little bit off topic but been thinking about getting a v70r are they a 2.5 or are they a 2.4 also i have heared about a few cases of cracked liners with these so how do they stand with tuning

they are a 2.5 pete

[smithy]

Maybe we could lower the inter forum fences for one day. I'd be up for it, I'd do a day at brunters for a few fast straight runs over a track day as I'd find that more appealing, but then that probably puts me in the minority :( lol

sounds good to me depending on price though

[Wobbly Dave]

I've done brunters - twice including my 120mph spin out in 2007. It's not as interesting as Cadwell or Oulton park but a bit safer for all you scardy cats.

Sadly all the old drifto photos were lost in the great crash of 2008 -

http://www.bigredvolvos.co.uk/galleries/bruntingthorpe_airfield.htm

This is all I have - with the Ninja up my ass!

[smithy]

go to hamish hlm you will not be disapointed mate

[jardon]

My autotech map is an excellent custom map. & Yes it was done on the HLM dyno. I know from both Torque results & the data from the HLM dyno that the intake temps do not require WI.

Having seen results on the dyno from other tuned 2.4 T5s that you should give HLM some serious consideration.

I'm interested in Autotech so not looking to pick (big) holes in this point of view. How much experience of road/track mapping do you have? Come to that how much non-Hamish Volvo mapping experience do you have?

With earlier cars the knock detection is poor enough to allow a reasonable level of advance on a dyno vs road (it will self destruct eventually of course). in the ME7+ cars (the OP included) the knock sensors will have field day and reduce advance on a dyno long before they will on the road - on the 2.4 engine we have seen 10+ degrees of retard on dynos relative to the road. That's a huge loss in power that you have missed by only tuning on a dyno.

Also, the earlier cars have a cable throttle and will make max power at WOT every time. With our later vehicles torque is "on demand" and the ecu will simply supply enough boost for a given dyno loading (common error) and not necessarily compare well with what happens on the road. My HLM and WothRLine maps were dyno "proved" and written respectively and both were disappointing even though both claimed to be the best while rubbishing the competition.

The reality is that all tuners claim to be the best - Marco included - but trying before you buy is how I would go about choosing if I started again. Dyno plots and tuning company rhetroic leave me cold from a potential sales perspective - I accept a dyno may help prove that boost/fuelling is as expected but these are more accurately datalogged on road. Power and torque curves are just maths and tell us nothing about pedal response etc. Road tuning doesn't offer the pretty curves but does develop maps that feel nice to drive and optimise performance in later cars. Just saying.

[LiamT4]

But wouldn't you agree that maybe some tuners can get more out of dynos than others?

As i'v already said, if someone like norris designs or C A automotive will do the majority of there cars on a dyno (and they do some very powerfull cars), then they must be good enough for the majority of cars.

[jardon]

But wouldn't you agree that maybe some tuners can get more out of dynos than others?

As i'v already said, if someone like norris designs or C A automotive will do the majority of there cars on a dyno (and they do some very powerfull cars), then they must be good enough for the majority of cars.

I would say there is a great variability in tuning skill - dyno or road.

I've heard of Norris Designs but have no way of telling if they tune on track as well as dyno - anybody? They also build some very high power screamers for drag not road use so it would be difficult to prove that dyno tuning (if thats all they do) is "good enough for the majority" on that basis. I do understand why why they are used from a "how much did we gain with this mod" perspective - this is not petty stubborness. Just an observation born out of my own experience and a slowly growing understanding of how ME7+ ECUs work.

[p fandango]

With earlier cars the knock detection is poor enough to allow a reasonable level of advance on a dyno vs road (it will self destruct eventually of course). in the ME7+ cars (the OP included) the knock sensors will have field day and reduce advance on a dyno long before they will on the road - on the 2.4 engine we have seen 10+ degrees of retard on dynos relative to the road. That's a huge loss in power that you have missed by only tuning on a dyno
funny you say that, because when i had Bonny on the dyno i especially asked them to measure the advance during its session. It didn't retard the ignition till about 5-6runs in, & then it was quite evident as the power had fell thru the floor & was a very noticable from the graph.

[LiamT4]

I would say there is a great variability in tuning skill - dyno or road.

I've heard of Norris Designs but have no way of telling if they tune on track as well as dyno - anybody? They also build some very high power screamers for drag not road use so it would be difficult to prove that dyno tuning (if thats all they do) is "good enough for the majority" on that basis. I do understand why why they are used from a "how much did we gain with this mod" perspective - this is not petty stubborness. Just an observation born out of my own experience and a slowly growing understanding of how ME7+ ECUs work.

They do both.
They do most of their "normal" cars on a dyno, but they do the race/track cars on both, as i'd imagine most places that do 800bhp+ cars would.
They'd be mad not too wouldn't they.

C A autos do most of theres on a dyno, but will then also map them on the road if the car has any issues. (at brunters)

Not knocking tuning on the road at all, as it can be a very good way of tuning, just trying to point out that mapping a car on a dyno can be perfectly fine, with the correct tools and knowledge.

[jardon]

funny you say that, because when i had Bonny on the dyno i especially asked them to measure the advance during its session. It didn't retard the ignition till about 5-6runs in, & then it was quite evident as the power had fell thru the floor & was a very noticable from the graph.

Not sure if that's concurring with what I wrote or not - I think it is! The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno. If the car is only being tuned a dyno then there will be no retard logged as the tuner will back off when the knock limit is reached. On road with much colder intake air and cooler engine bays that threshold is several degrees further on with our cars - thats the "lost power" a dyno fails to find. Road tuning lends itself more to ME7+ in this respect as the knock control is in a different league to 4.3/4.4 vehicles.

[jardon]

They do both.
They do most of their "normal" cars on a dyno, but they do the race/track cars on both, as i'd imagine most places that do 800bhp+ cars would.
They'd be mad not too wouldn't they.

C A autos do most of theres on a dyno, but will then also map them on the road if the car has any issues. (at brunters)

Not knocking tuning on the road at all, as it can be a very good way of tuning, just trying to point out that mapping a car on a dyno can be perfectly fine, with the correct tools and knowledge.

A dyno will get you close - I think we agree and I do accept your point. Define "fine" - if thats "will do for a road car" then I will take road tuning or a combo any day of the week (still agreeing!).

[LiamT4]

A dyno will get you close - I think we agree and I do accept your point. Define "fine" - if thats "will do for a road car" then I will take road tuning or a combo any day of the week (still agreeing!).

I totally see why you have your car mapped like that.
If i were to take a car somewhere to have a custom map and that person/company has had good results with on road mapping then that would be totally fine for me.
If they have had good results in the past from mapping on a dyno, then that would be ok by me too.

Whatever the company thinks is appropriate for the car and level of tune.

[p fandango]

Not sure if that's concurring with what I wrote or not - I think it is! The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno. If the car is only being tuned a dyno then there will be no retard logged as the tuner will back off when the knock limit is reached. On road with much colder intake air and cooler engine bays that threshold is several degrees further on with our cars - thats the "lost power" a dyno fails to find. Road tuning lends itself more to ME7+ in this respect as the knock control is in a different league to 4.3/4.4 vehicles.
i was trying to point out it doesn't retard the ignition on a dyno quite as soon as made out, as i say it took 5-6 runs before it decided it needed to adjust the timing to make up for any issues. That was with an open cone filter which is affect more by the engine bay heat. It also didn't just back the timing a bit when it got to that level, it did it in one big step which made it very noticable. If a tuner can't tell by that time that its getting hot & losing power then they shouldn't be touching cars in the first place lol

[jardon]

i was trying to point out it doesn't retard the ignition on a dyno quite as soon as made out, as i say it took 5-6 runs before it decided it needed to adjust the timing to make up for any issues. That was with an open cone filter which is affect more by the engine bay heat. It also didn't just back the timing a bit when it got to that level, it did it in one big step which made it very noticable. If a tuner can't tell by that time that its getting hot & losing power then they shouldn't be touching cars in the first place lol

Thanks Pedro. Some cars may never pull back timing if not tuned that close enough to the knock threshold. Forgive my ignorance as I don't know if Bonny is mapped but if so you are not particularly near the knock threshold. Ashok developed a 2.4 tune with Marco a year ago that took the ignition curve to near race fuel values - admittedly with an Aquamist kit though the principles are no different without. On a dyno - even with Aquamist on - there was an immeadiate loss of 10 degrees advance compared to the road logs. If you tune for optimal ignition advance on the road you will not maintain it on a dyno. The nice thing about tuning at Bruntingthorpe is that engine temps don't rise to anywhere near the same extent as on a dyno. My advance curve is pretty radical and it didn't retard from target lap after lap.

[turbo-tuner]

The higher the state of tune (or how close you get to the knock threshold by raising boost and advancing ignition) the greater the retard seen on a dyno.

That depends on several factors -

1. The ambient conditions (some tuners are equipped with climate controlled dyno cells).

2. The dyno fan capability (some tuners have fans capable of exceeding well over 100 mph with suitable volume).

3. The type of dyno testing. Normal "dyno runs" as you are referring to will result in intake temps climbing as you go through the rev range. But advanced static load testing techniques can overcome this.

I'm not debating dyno v road mapping and the reasons for choosing one over the other - all I'm saying is that there is a lot more to dyno testing than the simplistic explanations you have given. If the tuner uses all the right tools at his disposal, then the issue of road/dyno mapping becomes irrelevant because you can see on the dyno when the ignition is retarding and what is causing it. Therefore, if your dyno facility has the capability of minimising problems with climbing intake temperatures (see the 3 points above), there is no reason why you can't develop a perfectly good tune on the dyno.

Granted, driveability tuning is a different story, but the best dynos are capable of doing this using simulated road testing, minimising the amount of fine tuning required on a real road.

Let's face it, even Volvo doesn't get driveability spot on! It's common for new models to have revised software (and sometimes hardware) installed later on in order to fix driveability problems such as poor response from standstill, hesitation at certain rpm and load points etc.

[jardon]

That depends on several factors -

1. The ambient conditions (some tuners are equipped with climate controlled dyno cells).

2. The dyno fan capability (some tuners have fans capable of exceeding well over 100 mph with suitable volume).

3. The type of dyno testing. Normal "dyno runs" as you are referring to will result in intake temps climbing as you go through the rev range. But advanced static load testing techniques can overcome this.

I'm not debating dyno v road mapping and the reasons for choosing one over the other - all I'm saying is that there is a lot more to dyno testing than the simplistic explanations you have given. If the tuner uses all the right tools at his disposal, then the issue of road/dyno mapping becomes irrelevant because you can see on the dyno when the ignition is retarding and what is causing it. Therefore, if your dyno facility has the capability of minimising problems with climbing intake temperatures (see the 3 points above), there is no reason why you can't develop a perfectly good tune on the dyno.

Granted, driveability tuning is a different story, but the best dynos are capable of doing this using simulated road testing, minimising the amount of fine tuning required on a real road.

Let's face it, even Volvo doesn't get driveability spot on! It's common for new models to have revised software (and sometime hardware) installed later on in order to fix driveability problems such as poor response from standstill, hesitation at certain rpm and load points etc.

I apologise if I've been ranting. You do present a more positive if dare I say it ideal view of dyno tuning. Advanced driveabilty dyno mapping and adequate temperature control are however not the norm. In fairness to you I have presented an ideal view of road tuning but it is based on real world experience and the significant contrast in results of dyno vs road mapping. I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

[turbo-tuner]

I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

Me too! :)

I think the problem with the usual dyno testing you see on a typical dyno day (which is what I think you are referring to as "the norm") is that it is in no way representative of how we drive on the road. For example, on a petrol car a typical dyno day test is done by flooring it in 4th gear from say 1500 rpm to the red line (say 7000 rpm). But who actually drives like this in real life? With the exception of Wobbly Dave ( :) ), probably nobody! When overtaking, for example, most people will probably change down a gear and start from 3500-4000 rpm, then nail it.

[LiamT4]

I apologise if I've been ranting. You do present a more positive if dare I say it ideal view of dyno tuning. Advanced driveabilty dyno mapping and adequate temperature control are however not the norm. In fairness to you I have presented an ideal view of road tuning but it is based on real world experience and the significant contrast in results of dyno vs road mapping. I'm willing to compromise and say dyno and road but certainly not dyno only.

lol. You've not been ranting, been putting your views and experience across quite well.

[MattM]

What do people think about just a straight flash of the ecu with no dyno? i.e a tried and tested map like MTE.

[jardon]

What do people think about just a straight flash of the ecu with no dyno? i.e a tried and tested map like MTE.

It's what I would recommend having tried a few stage 1 maps.

[Al115]

How will you know if your car is running properly?

Just because it "feels right"?

Remember that lean engines make great power until they go "BANG".

Don't risk it, is my view, unless you've got the money to fix it if it breaks. :)

[Al115]

How will you know if your car is running properly?

Just because it "feels right"?

Remember that lean engines make great power until they go "BANG".

Don't risk it, is my view, unless you've got the money to fix it if it breaks. :)


(and just to add to that - I'm not suggesting the map might be at fault, but rather your car hardware - best to check as much as you can!)

[jardon]

How will you know if your car is running properly?

Just because it "feels right"?

Remember that lean engines make great power until they go "BANG".

Don't risk it, is my view, unless you've got the money to fix it if it breaks. :)

+1 don't map anything that's not running well.

You don't need a dyno to tell you that. My first stage 1 was "verifed" by dyno ie: confirmed it was running AFR 13 at 1.2 bar!! The dyno of course failed to identify the hesitation I experienced under load after mapping and the lack of go after 5000 rpm. Problem solved by "blindly" flashing in an MTE map. Not saying MTE are perfect but that first £400 map with dyno was a waste of time and money.

You don't need a dyno to check fuelling - easy to use a datalogger such as MTE Softloader or an Android phone. My HLM and Rica stage 1's ran Lambda 0.9 at 1.2 bar and failed to deliver after the initial whoosh of spool. My MTE map richened to ~0.8 as soon as the turbo was delivering >10-12 psi and the driving experience was night and day.

I live and learn.

[Al115]

Right. Check the AFRs as a minimum. Don't just put a map on without being able to monitor the fuelling :)

[jardon]

The OP has an ME7 car - it won't go bang of it runs leaner than is desirable but performance is blunt.

[Al115]

I guess that I'm just not totally confident in trusting the ECU to manage all the potential lean conditions it might encounter through mapping... but maybe I'm unnecessarily old-school there!

[MattM]

I imagine getting a stage 1 MTE map from say Don Kalmar he would perform the necessary checks? (he is someone I'm considering using)

[Wobbly Dave]

I know enough about T5 tuning to be dangerous.

Using logged data from the Torque app (using the cheap BT adaptor) & outputs from the autologic tool (which plugs into the ODBII port via a wired connection) - the intake temps for both road & dyno from my own tuning are pretty similar. I saw the intake temps rise to around the 45 degree mark - I have logged the Torque values at both Oulton Park & Shakespeare raceway (drag strip). Oulton is by far the most demanding (nothing like regular road use) where I am full throttle then full brake & so forth for many laps. Similarly logged AFR, timing advance all look good on the dyno.

Not all dyno's are the same & whilst many know that I have some loyalty to Hamish, as both as a friend & as my mechanic of some 7 years or so, of course my opinion will be a biased. I know better than anyone that HLM have invested significant sums in their infrastructure. I also know that Hamish can be a challenge to get on with - Marmite is very apt but I still respect his opinion & will still strive to do things to my car to deliberately wind him up.
I have been to many dyno days & to date HLM are the only ones with a single roller dyno (important from a tyre deflection perspective) & a fan which is the size of a small car!! Given that moving from one dyno to another would introduce an error factor - I have always used the same - irrespective of whether certain dissenters labelling it "the random number generator" - I know from my IT experience the importance of baseline comparison. In short it works for me.

I think that perhaps it would be nice to get more out of 2nd but as Jardon points out the on-demand metered nature of ME7 is a difficult beast to master. This is only because I wish to get further up a list on a Volvo enthusiast site (best 1/4 mile times) & at the end of the day - does it really matter. Probably not.

As for the dyno vs on-road tuning debate I think Ad (turbo-tuner) has it spot on. The auto-logic map is designed with the "drop down a gear" approach in mind. It doesn't front load the front of the torque curve with a massive lump - however it is very well sustained. Make of it what you will but even with my limited talent 104.7mph is a stonking 3rd gear. I am very happy with the map - I think there are a few tweaks we can introduce - but my car is getting on a bit now (bit like me) - 158K is not youthful - so I am mindful that I need to retain a little resiliance as my money is no longer my own. Having had 4 custom maps from various sources on the current car I think that the current one is probably one of the best.

Matt, I hope you find this useful. I think there are a number of viable options - but as I said at the top Hamish is the only person I trust my car with.

I would be happy to let you see the C70 for yourself

[MattM]

Thanks Dave, I did find that very useful, a good vouch for Hamish there :)
You have the autotech map that HLM now use?

[Wobbly Dave]

Do you mean the torque graphy thing?

[Wobbly Dave]

Feel free to rummage through my project thread - though it did originally arise when I nearly sold the thing.

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26282

Last custom tuning results & my thoughts...
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showpost.php?p=402458&postcount=185

Dyno graph from the RNG dyno (random number generator) ;)

http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11337&d=1312847091

[MattM]

Cheers, looks good.

[Al115]

I imagine getting a stage 1 MTE map from say Don Kalmar he would perform the necessary checks? (he is someone I'm considering using)

Definitely something to ask as part of your pre-sales discussions!

[jardon]

I imagine getting a stage 1 MTE map from say Don Kalmar he would perform the necessary checks? (he is someone I'm considering using)

As Al has suggested you should ask anybody who tunes your car what to expect and how to prepare. Running higher levels of torque will put greater wear on engine mounts and bushes so any existing play may worsen quicker.

In terms of engine checks prior to mapping I would replace spark plugs (genuine Volvo), air filter (genuine volvo or your choice of K&N/ITG etc), engine oil and filter and Boost Control Solenoid.

Things to check integrity of - all boost hoses (large), vac hoses (small) and their couplings. I would check compression so as to rule out any major valve/rod/piston/wear issue - cheap and simple to do.

When HLM, Rica and MTE mapped my car there were no checks of such items made by the tuner but now I would consider them a minimum standard of care for a car worth mapping.

[MattM]

I'm getting a full service done at the same time so all those parts will be changed. Is the BCS the same as the Boost Pressure Sensor?

[Wobbly Dave]

Nope - BCS controls the actuator which in turn opens/closes the waste gate. Boost pressure sensor (well at least on ME7) is situated on the pipe leading into the ETM (just prior to the inlet manifold)

[MattM]

OK I'll keep that in mind and may get that changed in the service, pricey?

[jardon]

BCS is ~£40 from FRF or MRG.

[Wobbly Dave]

There are a raft of things that should be checked including the actuator pressure - BCS generally works or not. There is a stage 0 list floating about but it is more 850-centric.

[jardon]

There are a raft of things that should be checked including the actuator pressure.

+1 to actuator operation. Dave's right there is a prep for stage 1 list (or stage 0) on here somewhere.

[MattM]

I'll get whoever does my service to check the actuator operation - as you can tell I'm not very clued up.

[MattM]

Got my remap booked in with race-tune aka Phil Whitakers in Slough. Chose to go with these guys as their customer service is 1st class and they are 10 minutes from where I work in Slough. Getting a new BCS put on as well to be sure.

[Wobbly Dave]

I hope you enjoy it.

[MattM]

Thanks, not long now. I'm hoping it will transform the car and how it feels - it needs a little more pace.

[MattM]

Remap tomorrow morning :)

[daza-b]

Remap tomorrow morning :)

haha then we will be seeing you on road wars haha

[MattM]

Probably, they do like the slough area ;)

[daza-b]

Probably, they do like the slough area ;)

lol either that or exeter area lol

[MattM]

Remap done.
Was only a 2 minute drive from pwcars to the office so not had a chance to test it. All I can say is its a lot bloody quicker! So much more torque!