CHECK THIS OUT - Excellent Site!

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

Really really really informative site i thought.

http://www.wothrline.com/main.html

[dave]

Really really really informative site i thought.

http://www.wothrline.com/main.html

excellent website

dave

[Richard Brandt]

Especially what Jan has to say about the claimed bhp increase when opting for a software ecu upgrade..

[jim_from_surrey]

that sites links page answered a pertinent question in my house... the identity of The Stig from topgear!

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

that sites links page answered a pertinent question in my house... the identity of The Stig from topgear!How do you weigh that up then ? Seeing as i was kind enough to share the site ugh um i think you owe me a PM lol...

[p fandango]

How do you weigh that up then ? Seeing as i was kind enough to share the site ugh um i think you owe me a PM lol...

http://www.sfb.co.uk/cgi-bin/profile.cgi?s=129

this is the site they link to, i know he was the Stig for the first series but not sure if they still use him

[Volvocano]

ive seen that site on my travels.. ive emailed the guy before congratulating him on the great informative stuff on there and told him to get on here hopefully he will.
also he mentioned there are 300bhp D5`s kicking around in his group also which should be interesting to see what has been done if he comes on here.

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

I think after top gear crashed the Jag XJS off the aircraft carrier they got a new Stig, i met him last year at the Nurburgring with helmet down etc, he's only about 5'6 max, he also had his initials on his racesuit in his midriff too, and yes i have forgotten them lol, i think he's a foreign driver myself, did u see tonights episode, interesting how Webber & Hill took different lines in the Suzuki test.

[Volvocano]

got another email from him, i reffered him to the Volvotuning website (UK) and here is his reply....



I will not argue about the link that you sent - it's just fake figures
and
it's not possible to reach!
If people believe in them and similar claims and doesn't listen to
people
with experience - let them be fooled...

I'm working with the 260hp T5 and the 300hp R-line and I now exactly
what is
possible to reach with just SW and 340hp in the T5 is a joke. *lol*
I know that MTE in Sweden claim >340hp for the T5 as well and when I
asked
Marco at MTE about it and told him and it was fun. ;-)
335-340hp is what is possible to reach in the R-line and that engine
has
bigger fuel injectors, a different intercooler solution and most of all
a
new exhaust system with less back pressure.
Fuel injectores and intercooler is not sufficient in the T5 for that
kind of
performance and it doesn't matter what fuel you use as long as you
don't use
nitro or similar in the fuel...no gas station offer fuel with that kind
of
capacity.

As I stated; ~185hp is what you can reach in the D5 without changing
turbocharger and fuel injectors. 205hp is just not possible since you
can't
do more than open the fuel injectors wide open and they aren't capable
to
deliver fuel in the correct amount to reach 205hp.
Diesel technology is different from petrol and it's the amount of
diesel
through the injectors that will set the power limit.

Go for the 2.4T engine and settle with a cat.back system and SW and you
will
get 245-250hp and ~380Nm without any problem.

BR / J


hope this helps. can we have a reply back from a Volvotuning guy/girl i belive there is one on this site as it does seem strange that a company can claim 340hp from just a remap on a 2006+ S60 T5 yet this is not possible. but the guy seems to know his stuff, and ive always though some of these figures were a bit optomistic and BSR style gains were more realistic

[Mrsmopp]

So because one guy says its not possible therefore its the law!! Its bloody proven time and time again what more do you want?

x

[Justin]

got another email from him, i reffered him to the Volvotuning website (UK) and here is his reply....



I will not argue about the link that you sent - it's just fake figures
and
it's not possible to reach!
If people believe in them and similar claims and doesn't listen to
people
with experience - let them be fooled...

I'm working with the 260hp T5 and the 300hp R-line and I now exactly
what is
possible to reach with just SW and 340hp in the T5 is a joke. *lol*
I know that MTE in Sweden claim >340hp for the T5 as well and when I
asked
Marco at MTE about it and told him and it was fun. ;-)
335-340hp is what is possible to reach in the R-line and that engine
has
bigger fuel injectors, a different intercooler solution and most of all
a
new exhaust system with less back pressure.
Fuel injectores and intercooler is not sufficient in the T5 for that
kind of
performance and it doesn't matter what fuel you use as long as you
don't use
nitro or similar in the fuel...no gas station offer fuel with that kind
of
capacity.

As I stated; ~185hp is what you can reach in the D5 without changing
turbocharger and fuel injectors. 205hp is just not possible since you
can't
do more than open the fuel injectors wide open and they aren't capable
to
deliver fuel in the correct amount to reach 205hp.
Diesel technology is different from petrol and it's the amount of
diesel
through the injectors that will set the power limit.

Go for the 2.4T engine and settle with a cat.back system and SW and you
will
get 245-250hp and ~380Nm without any problem.

BR / J


hope this helps. can we have a reply back from a Volvotuning guy/girl i belive there is one on this site as it does seem strange that a company can claim 340hp from just a remap on a 2006+ S60 T5 yet this is not possible. but the guy seems to know his stuff, and ive always though some of these figures were a bit optomistic and BSR style gains were more realistic
:talktohan :wallbash: :rolleyes:

[volvotuning]

Two things -

1. The guy states the following on the web site - "Diesel engine technology is not my territory and my knowledge and experience concerning diesel is limited..." so on what grounds is the argument based?

2. I can tell you that our D5 claims are 100% accurate. Almost all the D5 models we tune produce over 200 bhp, and that's not just on our dyno. Many other independent dyno testing results also confirm this. I have no idea why this guy states that only 185 bhp is possible with stock hardware. It is more than possible!

Adam.

ps. The S60 T5 260 bhp 2005 data has been corrected - it was a mistake on my part, and I just confirmed with RICA that their data claims 310 bhp on 95 RON.

[dave]

ps. The S60 T5 data has been corrected - it was a mistake on my part, and I just confirmed with RICA that their data claims 310 bhp on 95 RON.

is that the 2005 onwards s60t5?

by the sounds of it, the guy does seem to know alot about the t5 range

ive done alot of rolling roads in my time, i allways get different results from them.

"bit optomistic", it will allways be like that, to help justfly the £400+ ecu upgrades

the tuning market place is a very expensive place to be entering, its only natural that companys are going to be optomistic with there claims, to justfly the cost of X.

dave

ps one thing to remember is this guy everybody is "burning at the post", has nothing to gain!

[volvotuning]

Dave,

Yes. 2005. I corrected the edit above for clarity too. Yes, he appears to know a fair bit on the T5. However, he appears to know a little less about diesels yet still persists in stating that such gains are not possible. I do not intend to burn anyone at the post. If that is his experience, then so be it. It's not mine though.

One other thing that puzzles me, the guy makes no mention of the fact that the S60/V70R was not capable of delivering the claimed 300 bhp. It came nowhere near! So, tuner claims are false but Volvo claims are all true?

Adam.

[dave]

One other thing that puzzles me, the guy makes no mention of the fact that the S60/V70R was not capable of delivering the claimed 300 bhp. It came nowhere near! So, tuner claims are false but Volvo claims are all true?

this one is a can of worms!

ive heard peeps from the US, complaining about heat soak on the s60r, in hot weather over there.

so on a RR, the s60r is going to have probs, the rr fans are not going to be able to produce enough air flow, compared to driving along the road.

the other problem with your theory is, various car mags have managed volvo's claimed 0-60's etc, of 5.5secs to 60, and 14secs@100mph 1/4mile etc, so if you do the maths for a 4wd, 300bhp car weighting 1637kgs, thats the stats that the car should be doing.

ive owned a s60t5(250bhp), if the s60r was say putting out say 270bhp,

s60t5 - 173bhp/ton

s60r - with 270bhp - 164bhp/ton, and 4wd trans losses, so that would make the s60r slower than my old s60t5, but the old butt dyno says different, i drive the cars back to back, the s60r is noticably quicker through the gears.

i think the truth is the car does suffer from heat soke more easily than other turbo cars, but in are cooler climate,i dont think the problem will be noticed much, only on a RR or a vey hot summers day.

the guy does mention the biggest limiting factor for tuning with the s60r, is the intercooler setup.

if the new s60t5 can be rica mapped to 310bhp, it has a 2.4l, bigger turbo the kkk24, the older s60t5 has got a 2.3l, smaller turbo, but both get the same 310bhp after remap, maybe the 2.3l, doesnt quite make the claimed 310bhp?

dave

[volvotuning]

Dave, the new one can be mapped to 310 bhp on 95 RON, as stated above. The earlier 2.3 T5 engine on RICA software will not produce 310 bhp on 95 RON, and I have never stated that it would.

As for complaints against the R, it's not just the USA. Now, if as you say, the problem doesn't get noticed much except for rolling roads and hot days, the same will also be true for the other models, ie not enough flow on the RR to produce the claimed power, especially when tuned. As you say, a can of worms that will have people going around in circles!

Adam.

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

So because one guy says its not possible therefore its the law!! Its bloody proven time and time again what more do you want?

xDont get yer knickers in a twist Mrs Lmao!

[dave]

Dave, the new one can be mapped to 310 bhp on 95 RON, as stated above. The earlier 2.3 T5 engine on RICA software will not produce 310 bhp on 95 RON, and I have never stated that it would.

but it says on your website that a s60 t5 250bhp will get 310bhp after a ecu upgrade?

As for complaints against the R, it's not just the USA. Now, if as you say, the problem doesn't get noticed much except for rolling roads and hot days, the same will also be true for the other models, ie not enough flow on the RR to produce the claimed power, especially when tuned. As you say, a can of worms that will have people going around in circles!

but its not just as simple as that, every turbo car is going to have different intercooler setups and different states of tune, maybe volvo's s60r just suffers from heatsoak more easily and quickly, compared to other cars cos the intercooler setup is poor for the present state of tune.

when you chip a s60r, does one say producing 270bhp, chip it and you get 330/340bhp?, or does it get 30+bhp, and therefore becomes 270+30 = 300bhp?

dave

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

but it says on your website that a s60 t5 250bhp will get 310bhp after a ecu upgrade?


but its not just as simple as that, every turbo car is going to have different intercooler setups and different states of tune, maybe volvo's s60r just suffers from heatsoak more easily and quickly, compared to other cars cos the intercooler setup is poor

daveI think the 310bhp is on 98 ron Optimax innit ? Not 95ron.

[volvotuning]

but it says on your website that a s60 t5 250bhp will get 310bhp after a ecu upgrade?

dave

Come on Dave, if you read the top of the tuning section on my website, it says "All the power increases quoted for petrol cars are using 98 RON super-unleaded petrol such as Shell Optimax."

Not 95 RON.

Adam.

[dave]

I think the 310bhp is on 98 ron Optimax innit ? Not 95ron.

form vt website " All the power increases quoted for petrol cars are using 98 RON super-unleaded petrol such as Shell Optimax."

you aint going to get an extra 30bhp from using 98ron fuel, ie 310bhp for 95 ron and then 340bhp for using 98ron!

dave

[volvotuning]

form vt website " All the power increases quoted for petrol cars are using 98 RON super-unleaded petrol such as Shell Optimax."

dave

Precisely! I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make?

Adam.

[dave]

ie you aint going to get an extra 30bhp from using 98ron fuel, ie 310bhp for 95 ron and then 340bhp for using 98ron!

dave

[volvotuning]

Dave, check the web site. Maybe you haven't refreshed it, cos like I say it was corrected earlier today.

Adam.

[dave]

Dave, check the web site. Maybe you haven't refreshed it, cos like I say it was corrected earlier today.

Adam.

had a look 30 mins ago, wasnt changed, but just had a look now its changed, lol

so if you put 98ron into the s60t5 (260bhp), wot would be the ecu upgrade bhp be?

also had a look on the bsr website, they have a before and after dyno run, where the s60r makes 300bhp and 450nm torque as standard, torque seems a bit high, should be 400nm, but bhp is spot on!

dave

[dave]

also out of interest, your site has the s60r as 2004 and on get 340bhp, but wot about the 2003 s60r's, is there a ecu upgrade for them?

dave

[volvotuning]

had a look 30 mins ago, wasnt changed, but just had a look now its changed, lol

so if you put 98ron into the s60t5 (260bhp), wot would be the ecu upgrade bhp be?


Don't know because I don't have the spec from RICA>



also had a look on the bsr website, they have a before and after dyno run, where the s60r makes 300bhp and 450nm torque as standard, torque seems a bit high, should be 400nm, but bhp is spot on!

dave

Right, and they also claim 354 bhp out of it modified, which according to other tuners such as TME, is not possible. They also claim that the D5 produces 426 Nm stock. It does not.

Adam.

[dave]

Right, and they also claim 354 bhp out of it modified, which according to other tuners such as TME, is not possible.

same thing that guy no one likes was saying

[volvotuning]

I don't think people here don't like him. I certainly haven't met the guy, and no doubt he's a decent chap. But, the fact remains that he admits to having limited diesel knowledge, and then proceeds to dismiss the various tuner's claims about the D5 power gains. It's not what I would call accurate and consistent, especially when you put it in the detailed context of his T5 information. All IMHO of course.

Adam.

[dave]

ok, my next question "also out of interest, your site has the s60r as 2004 and on get 340bhp, but wot about the 2003 s60r's, is there a ecu upgrade for them?"

??

dave

[volvotuning]

Sorry I missed that. It's essentially the same. A bit like the T5 ME7 spec being classed as 1999 models, when it fact they first came out in 1998. It's also a similar scenario to the new D5 coming out in 2005, but actually classed as a 2006 model.

Adam.

[dave]

ok, cheers for that

dave

[dave]

just reading front page of that guys site, at it he does say "Since I’m working with engine development at Volvo Cars"

which means he know alot more than most, and therefore stand up and take note of wot this guy is saying!

dave

[Volvocano]

just reading front page of that guys site, at it he does say "Since I’m working with engine development at Volvo Cars"

which means he know alot more than most, and therefore stand up and take note of wot this guy is saying!

dave

agree.. im sure considering the country he`s in, his age and experience he is qualified however im in the dark about all of this ive asked him to come onto this forum and explain stuff i.e the 300hp diesel as that would be incredible.

[volvotuning]

just reading front page of that guys site, at it he does say "Since I’m working with engine development at Volvo Cars"

which means he know alot more than most, and therefore stand up and take note of wot this guy is saying!

dave

Yes, but as mentioned before, the same guy also states that his diesel knowledge is limited. So if what he claims is true about working for Volvo Cars engine development, he clearly only works in a limited area of engine development otherwise he would have in depth knowledge of diesel tuning. With that in mind, many tuners out there must know more than him because they have in depth knowledge of both petrol and diesel tuning. Also, I'm not entirely sure what relevence the country has. You don't need to live in Sweden to know how to tune Volvos!!! In fact, if you do your research carefully, you will see that much development (as with most manufactures) comes from outside the country of origin.

Anyway, I guess we all have our points to make. I'm done for now! Got to make myself something to eat :)

Adam.

[Majesticpower]

So out of intrest- My 2001 S60 T5 is supposed to be capable of 310BPH with Optimax(98ron)?

What would the difference of BPH make if say it was run on BP ULTIMATE?(97RON)? I didnt think the RON made a significant difference to the BPH? I think this is what dave was getting at?

Also, that guy mentions gaining 10-15 bph odd out of an exhaust system, is this possible?

MP.

[volvotuning]

So out of intrest- My 2001 S60 T5 is supposed to be capable of 310BPH with Optimax(98ron)?

What would the difference of BPH make if say it was run on BP ULTIMATE?(97RON)? I didnt think the RON made a significant difference to the BPH? I think this is what dave was getting at?

Also, that guy mentions gaining 10-15 bph odd out of an exhaust system, is this possible?

MP.

RON makes a big difference to bhp. Why else do the various grades exists! If you look in your manual, you will see that Volvo recommends 98 RON for maximum performance and economy, and it says that 95 RON is ok for normal driving but 98 RON is recommended for hard driving. Now they don't say this for a laugh. Very basically, the higher the value, the better the resistance to knock, so you can optimise your ECU calibration to utilise 98 RON. Otherwise the ECU retards ignition when knock is detected and you lose power. Persistant knock is not good for an engine which is why you should run the best grade possible.

Maybe the guy has got 15 bhp from his exhaust. Although it doesn't say where in the rpm range the gain was, it's still a spectacular gain - same gain as from his ECU reflash in fact.

Never say never is my motto! Columbus was told that the earth was flat...

Adam.

[Majesticpower]

No need to get defensive, i wasnt doubting your argument or anything as i have had the RICA re-map done from you myself so wouldnt want to doubt what your saying.

I was just querying the fact that quite a few people claim RON makes no differenceto BPH.

I would like to think it does, and would say that on Tesco 99 RON the car does feel that bit quicker/responsive anyway, so i would go with you on that.

I would definately get an exhuast system if the difference was noticed in performance.

MP.

[volvotuning]

Sorry, it wasn't meant to sound defensive. That's the problem with the net! I guess that's what the smiley's are for!!! :doh:

The thing abot RON is that if you optimise the ECU for say 95 RON, then yes I would agree that using 98 RON is not likely to make any difference at all. But if you optimise the ECU for 98 RON and you use 95, I can pretty much guarantee that you will be down on power as the onset of knock will be much sooner.

To be honest, I think that the people who claim that RON makes no difference must have very limited tuning exprience, especially when it comes to forced induction.

Adam.

[Majesticpower]

Yeh no worries mate..

Infact im very happy with my RICA, so much so you can have one of these... :remybussi

Only problem is, ive got the bug for more power now.. :slap:

Thats why im anticipating the Induction kit you guys have in the workings. An im also tempted with an exhaust system. Anything to get that bit more power out of her without having to go to the extremes of changing the turbo really..

MP.

P.s Wonder if you remember me, ive had 2 cars tuned by you chaps in the past now..

[volvotuning]

I do remember! Problem is that I generally don't pay attention to the sigs. :bricks:

Right, the quest for more power....

You're now at the stage where anything you do is going to be worse value for money than what you already did in terms of bhp / £ spent. You could have a full exhaust system including a 3" race cat downpipe for example, but that will set you back more than the larger turbo. The 19T and full exhaust system will give you the best gains, but it's not cheap.

It really depends on how much you are prepared to spend on the next "stage". You can do it in steps, but then the gains won't be as spectacular as they would be if you did it all in one go.

Adam.

[dave]

adam - see how you have a stage 3 for the s60r, 440bhp, "Custom turbo, custom exhaust system, custom air intake, and an ECU reprogam"

do you do anything with the intercoolers?

cos that guy is saying this:

" For some high tuned engines like the B5254T4(S60R/V70R) in the latest R-line, the intercooler is one of the most limiting factors and no matter what the tuning companies claim, there's no way that you can reach above 340-350hp without rebuilding the charge air cooling system! For most high pressure engines the intercooler will set the limit to 310-320hp. If you don't work on the intercooler solution it doesn't matter what you do with the exhaust, fuel injectors, software calibration, turbocharger etc., when the air in the inlet manifold gets too hot, engine performance will be limited. I have seen performance figures of 350-400hp claimed by tuning companies and that is not possible without a new intercooler solution."

which to me does make alot of sense

also here's another interesting point:

"For some engines with high level of tuning from factory, a downpipe and catalytic converter will not do much without further hardware upgrade. The B5254T4(S60R/V70R) engine in the latest R-line version is one engine that will not gain much from such an upgrade and tuning companies that sell different SW stage levels for this engine is just making money"

which again makes sense, before i brought my s60r i study up on it, one of the thing that impressed me was, that it already lots of tuned parts on it

ie, fast flow cat, fast flow exhaust system, they changed the downpipe and manifold so on, so on lots of things improved.

maybe the guy mainly works with the petrol engines volvo have, cos he does show alot knowledge on the new r-line of volvo's

dave

[volvotuning]

Yep, the intercoolers can be upgraded. In fact the customers of ours who have upgraded the intercooler have subsequently needed and ECU recalibration to compensate for it. However the stock intercooler won't stop you getting over 350 bhp. On a dyno with inadequate cooling, then I would agree. Don't forget that charge temps are also determined by the efficeincy of the turbocharger, and not just the intercooler. The exhaust manifold can also be improved.

Adam.

[Goof]

It's all getting too technical for me - I'll get my coat.

[Majesticpower]

Ok, so would you be able to break down the prices for me?

As i am intrested in going the next 'stage'.. :jaw:

MP.

[volvotuning]

Ok, so would you be able to break down the prices for me?

As i am intrested in going the next 'stage'.. :jaw:

MP.

I will but I can't until Wednesday. I'm off work til then. Hamish can help you if you want a quote sooner.

Adam.

[dave]

Yep, the intercoolers can be upgraded. In fact the customers of ours who have upgraded the intercooler have subsequently needed and ECU recalibration to compensate for it. However the stock intercooler won't stop you getting over 350 bhp. On a dyno with inadequate cooling, then I would agree. Don't forget that charge temps are also determined by the efficeincy of the turbocharger, and not just the intercooler. The exhaust manifold can also be improved.

Adam.

yes, i can understand your point on the bigger turbo point

wot is the upgrade path for the intercoolers, is best to one big one or 2 bigger ones, ie volvo's root.

which is best?

dave

ps - adam, is the sweat pouring off your forehead tonight?, lol

[volvotuning]

yes, i can understand your point on the bigger turbo point

wot is the upgrade path for the intercoolers, is best to one big one or 2 bigger ones, ie volvo's root.

which is best?

dave

ps - adam, is the sweat pouring off your forehead tonight?, lol

LOL :B_program

The only reason I'm on here so long is that I'm in the middle of writing some software, so I'm on the computer all night anyway! But I do like this sort of discussion, even with some of the members of the "flat earth society" :)

I don't know, I never sold the intercoolers mentioned earlier. They were purchased by the customers elsewhere and dynod elsewhere too. All I did was supply the remap based on their dyno AFR charts.

Adam.

[Goof]

Where do we get to the point of thinking we need to be looking at a different car?
Surely there's only so much we should be doing to a comfy quick family saloon/estate before deciding that money is better spent on a more relevant vehicle project?

[volvotuning]

Good point! That's why most people settle for a remap only.

Adam.

[Majesticpower]

Where do we get to the point of thinking we need to be looking at a different car?
Surely there's only so much we should be doing to a comfy quick family saloon/estate before deciding that money is better spent on a more relevant vehicle project?

Yeh very good point indeed.

Which is why ive been hesitant to do anything more to my car in truth.

Which has given me a new thread idea.

MP.

[Goof]

I'm hoping to go with a VT 280 mod in Aug (I need to phone you Adam/Hamish and get booked in one Sat).
I should be getting a strut brace soon, but other than that I see no need of going further - just general maintenance/running costs.
If I want a quicker car, then I'll have to look at changing the T5 for something more suitable!
For now I just love the leather comfort with the torque! ;)