Annoying Issue - is this normal?

[MattM]

I haven't owned my car long (2002 S60 T5 Geartronic) and I've noticed an annoying issue while driving. If I'm cruising along, and take my foot off the accelerator for any amount of time, then press down again, theres a big judder as if the car wasn't even in gear? This happens in man mode or auto. Is this normal? Any help would be great.

Thanks.

[cornclose]

I'd recommend you have;

a) Gearbox oil flushed/changed

b) TCM software updated

You may find your issues will go away...

[wegal]

Does the 2002 model have the gear neutral issue ? If so a software update will fix it.

[MattM]

It's as if when I take my foot off the accelerator it disengages the clutch, then when I accelerate again the clutch jumps back in very unsmoothly. Is this just my imagination?

How much am I looking for the above at a dealer?

[cornclose]

Not sure, but my 2001 had the 'gear-neutral' issue (sometimes called 'auto-neutral').

A software update to stop it has improved things imeasurably.

[cornclose]

But don't underestimate how much of an improvement the ATF fluid change can make too...

[MattM]

Volvo want £57 for 30 minutes diagnosing, then they can tell me if the software is out of date or if there is anything wrong at all. I'm a bit hesitant going into this.

[cornclose]

Take it to a suitably equiped independant. Where are you located ?

[MattM]

I'm in Milton Keynes.

[cornclose]

Not sure what/who to suggest then mate. The problem, if there is one, won't go away on it's own though and will require you to bite the bullet and spend a little £££'s if it bugs you enough.

Rather than paying for a diagnosis, you might be as well just to instruct someone to change the ATF fluid.

[MattM]

How much does that usually cost? I doubt they can update the software without first knowing what it's currently running?

[MattM]

Which ATF do I need? I may try and change it myself.

[cornclose]

Volvo dealers will pretty much always charge you for getting off their arse. Independants not always as mean. Unless you can find a friendly Volvo dealer....

Some independants don't have access to Volvo software though (is it actually possible, anyone?) so my TCM is updated with Autologic code.

You'll need to use the geuine Volvo ATF fluid for Geartronic, not cheap, but then neither is a new gearbox if the wrong stuff is used and it goes bang...

Rufe on here will give you the best price I should think.

[MattM]

Do you think it's worth just asking for a ATF change and software update and going from there? I haven't had any dealings with volvo before so I'm not sure how strict they are with 'we must diagnose it first'.

[cornclose]

If I were them, I'd do anything that the customer asked. But you'd have to sort that out with the dealer (whoever it is).

All I can say is that an ATF flush/change and software update have sorted these kinds of issues out for myself and others.

[MattM]

Volvo are calling me back with a quote for the ATF flush/change and software update.

[MattM]

Volvo want £187.70 to do the ATF change and software update, just over an hours work. Is this correct?

[cornclose]

Sounds about right time wise. Can't remember the cost of the ATF fluid, I think when I bought some it was £60+ just for a partial change. Check if they've quoted for a partial or full change of fluid.

[MattM]

Well I asked for a flush/change but I was told it was a drain/change.

[Storm-Troll]

I HAD THAT ON MY S60 T5 oops.. caps... lol....only when taking the foot of the accellorator or puttin it back on, it did it when i first got the car about 6 months ago.... I was runnign it on normal Crappy unleaded..... the viking can vouch for its Jumpiness BUT after I started using V Power abour 2 months after I got it.... it has NEVER done it since.... not a splutter in 4 months.....

[HSS786]

I had the same Issue too, mines a V70 T5 Geartronic whilst driving yesterday, it seemed as though the gearbox cannot seem to make up its mind as when to change gears and over revs and clunks into gear, I also had the Engine warning light illuminate and the "Transmission Service Required" message on the DIM, although its more noticeable when the car is hot at normal operating temperature. I had the Gearbox oil changed at the dealers last year along with the TCM, it was shifting more smoothly but now its back again:| I will have to ring the dealer and arrange for a Diagnostics test, Ill keep you updated. Thanks

[wegal]

Independants can offer the latest original volvo software... at least mine can. The software cost the same where ever you get it.. its just the labour charge that is different. Milton keynes isnt that far from birmingham is it ? If its close take it to HLM. Hamish will sort it and at reasonable prices.

[MattM]

Thanks for the replies. I'm still in 2 minds about getting this done, as £190 is a lot for something that isn't that bad, just annoying. I would like it to be smoother though.

[MattM]

So I went and got it done, it seems much improved I have to say. I was shocked at the price of the parts though.

Transmission Oil - £37.80 (exc. VAT)
TCM Upgrade - £14.00 (exc. VAT)

Thought they were more than that. Total bill was £186.07.

[HSS786]

Took mine to an Indy, got the gearbox fluid changed for £75 and the code cleared, which was TCM 0100, it has improved a bit, but the clunk is still there especially from D into R, would a TCM upgrade smooth things out along with the gearbox Adaptations at the dealers?

[mds]

I first experienced these problems with our MY2000 V70 T5 the box is AW55-50SN not geartronic. The dealer checked and informed me I would need a new box £3500, after a lot of research I discovered that (A) these boxes should have the fluid changed at 48000 miles checked back through the service history and discovered it had never been done?? The dealer told me they dont need doing the box is OK for life (yeah) Under pressure they changed the ATF (It has to be JWS 3309) and reset the fluid counter. Like a new box, but after 6 months the clunky changes and flareing on changes returned. More research, it seems that just draining and refilling is only a partial fix what is needed is a complete gearbox flush. I couldnt find any one to do it even a local Transmission specialist wanted to drain and fill.
So I brought 1.5mtrs of 15mm OD clear hose in B&Q 15litrs of JWS3309 fluid from the local Vauxhall Dealer (GM use the same box) (Volvo wanted £17 per ltr) at £6.96 per ltr with discount.
The full flush took about an hour the fluid was absolutly black but with 3 ltrs in hand it was coming through nice and red.
Cleaned everything up back to the dealer had the fluid counter reset again and the TCM software updated that was a year and 11000 miles back with no reoccurances.
So bite the bullet and flush the box properley with the right ATF its not so difficult to get now most good Motor Factors will have it.
I have done all 3 cars what a difference it makes.

Good luck Dave

[cookie]

at that price for the fluid, they've just dropped oil from the box and refilled, proper flush of pipes and cooler is about 12 litres of oil (about 10 quid a litre for oil)

[MattM]

at that price for the fluid, they've just dropped oil from the box and refilled, proper flush of pipes and cooler is about 12 litres of oil (about 10 quid a litre for oil)

really ? how can i be sure? im not best pleased if they have done a half assed job that i will have to pay again to get right!

[HSS786]

I first experienced these problems with our MY2000 V70 T5 the box is AW55-50SN not geartronic. The dealer checked and informed me I would need a new box £3500, after a lot of research I discovered that (A) these boxes should have the fluid changed at 48000 miles checked back through the service history and discovered it had never been done?? The dealer told me they dont need doing the box is OK for life (yeah) Under pressure they changed the ATF (It has to be JWS 3309) and reset the fluid counter. Like a new box, but after 6 months the clunky changes and flareing on changes returned. More research, it seems that just draining and refilling is only a partial fix what is needed is a complete gearbox flush. I couldnt find any one to do it even a local Transmission specialist wanted to drain and fill.
So I brought 1.5mtrs of 15mm OD clear hose in B&Q 15litrs of JWS3309 fluid from the local Vauxhall Dealer (GM use the same box) (Volvo wanted £17 per ltr) at £6.96 per ltr with discount.
The full flush took about an hour the fluid was absolutly black but with 3 ltrs in hand it was coming through nice and red.
Cleaned everything up back to the dealer had the fluid counter reset again and the TCM software updated that was a year and 11000 miles back with no reoccurances.
So bite the bullet and flush the box properley with the right ATF its not so difficult to get now most good Motor Factors will have it.
I have done all 3 cars what a difference it makes.

Good luck Dave

I do believe Volvo dealers only drain & fill the Gearbox as per my Invoice says they've used 3 Quantity's of transmission fluid, judging from the Part number for the fluid which is 1161540 it comes in 1 litre bottles. So thats 3 litres of new fluid goin in the gearbox thats all.

P.S whats the vauxhall part number for the Transmission Oil, Ill be planning to flush the box some time soon

Thanks

[MattM]

Problem still exists :(

[cornclose]

So at £38 for oil and £14 for software they've charge you £134 for labour for what they said was an hours job. Sounds like they cocked up to me.

For £186 all in I'd expect a complete flush/change which is why I said to check that it was a full rather than a partial change. If I were you I'd phone them up and have it out with them.

Did they detail labour on your invoice? Were there any other parts used?

[MattM]

So at £38 for oil and £14 for software they've charge you £134 for labour for what they said was an hours job. Sounds like they cocked up to me.

For £186 all in I'd expect a complete flush/change which is why I said to check that it was a full rather than a partial change. If I were you I'd phone them up and have it out with them.

Did they detail labour on your invoice? Were there any other parts used?

I will get on the phone to them and have a go. I asked for a ATF flush/change, they said it's a drain/change. From what I understand, I go nothing like that. So they failed to provide the service I requested yet still charged me.

Edit - They are calling me back in a minute. I have a feeling I won't get very far with this. I don't even think they can do a proper flush as mds suggested.

Labour is detailed yes.

I think it's clear now that £38 of oil isn't enough to do the job, but obviously not being very mechanically minded I wasn't in a position to spot this. I'm really annoyed that I spent £186 and got nothing in return.

[cornclose]

I'll just add that if it was just one hours labour you were charged I think £134 an hour is ridiculous even by Volvo main dealer standards.

[MattM]

It took them 1.5 hours in the end, not sure why if they didn't do a proper job.

[cornclose]

I was once told that dealers should only charge 'book' time on jobs regardless of whether it takes them longer or not...

[MattM]

I'm pretty gutted. I know that the only way this is going to be fixed now is a proper flush, which is going to cost me a lot, and I've already forked out £185.

[MattM]

Spoke to Volvo, they said that the book they have says about 4 litres is required to change the gearbox oil - I assume gearbox oil is the same as automatic transmission fluid? So as far as they are concerned, they did it by the book.

[mds]

The last flush I did I used Carlube ATF-U from EuroCar Parts £6.96 pr Ltr.
Its fully compliant with JWS 3309, and Volvo 1161540,
Vauxhall ATF, part no 93160393, Toyota T-IV. I brought 12 litres the flush was carried out on my 2003 V70 T5 Geartronic. Equipment: 15mm OD x 1.5m clear hose, Rag, an empty 3ltr Squash bottle marked at rough litre levels, a long funnel (Halfords) for refilling and 12ltrs ATF-U
open the bonnet on the near side of the rad is the transmission cooler return pipe (Green Clip) it will be hot so wear gloves. I put plenty of rag under the connection to catch the spillage, hold the green clips in push in and pull out.
There will be some spillage into the rag hook the return pipe out of the way and push the 15mm hose into the connector on the rad (I have used some ptfe tape to ensure a good fit). feed the hose over the front and into the 3ltr bottle. Unclip the air feed from above the rad to the airbox it gives better access to the filler/dipstick. Find the trans dip stick (Burried at the front of the box) and remove it, put the long funnel in place.
Now run the engine and watch the bottle fill with black gunk!! at about 2 ltrs stop the engine and refill the trans with the same amount 2 ltrs new ATF (I then pour the stuff in the squash bottle into the used 1ltr containers), then repeat until its coming through nice and red. The 1997 car took 15 ltrs the 2000 12 ltrs and the 2003 11ltrs. When its flowing red stop the engine and replace the cooler hose clean the area and check the transmission oil level carefully make sure you dont over fill, check for leaks, job done.
The whole process takes about an hour all materials will cost about £100 and I have the satisfaction of knowing its been done properly, I also change the engine oil and filter every 5000 miles for my own peace of mind.
There is a thread somewhere on one of the American site complete with pictures if I can find it I will Post It.

Good Luck Dave
PS
This has cured many of the transmission problems for many people in many countries at around a £100 its a cheap place to start the next step is to change the B4 solonoid cover (Kit available from Volvo at about £15) all DIY and save a fortune.

[MattM]

Thanks mds. It sounds quite tricky, I don't really know my way round a car. Pictures would be great if you could find it. I'll have to put some cash aside to do this after xmas now :( I don't know how Volvo think 4 litres is a change of oil when theres another 8 litres in the system!

[mds]

Hi Matt
My understanding is the Transmission and Torque Converter hold around 7.5 litrs then you have a couple of litres in the oil cooler and pipes. When they drain the transmission they just empty the gearbox, about 3.5litres. Of course all the Cr**p is left in the torque converter the oil lines and the cooler.
The extra to flush the system is just to make sure its clear and clean.

Here is the link with pictures believe me it's so simple to do just take your time.
http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5668

[MattM]

Thanks, that doesn't look too bad.

[mds]

Once the flush is done you can get the fluid counter reset at a Dealer or some of the good Independants and have the TCM software updated. Not essential but it may be the cherry on the cake. Mine needed a software update the cost breakdown was,
Carry out Oil Adaption fotr transmission £24.00
TCM Software Upgrade £11.60
Total Inc VAT £40.94
They also carry out Health Check and give you a list of advisory items (obviously they hope they can talk you out of some more cash) Personally I only use the Dealer for essential items (like the software upgrade) all other work that I cant do myself I use an Independant Volvo Specialist for. Cam Belt change for example.
What part of the Country are you in?

Dave

[MattM]

I've already had the TCM updated, and the oil changed (but not flushed). So I've essentially got 3.5 litres of new ATF and the rest old crap. Completely pointless.

[MattM]

A little update.

The problem is getting to me more and more on the motorway journeys. I can be cruising along and for whatever reason I have to break or take my foot off the accelerator to slow down. Now this may be my imagination, but it looks like when the revs get to about 2k they completely drop off. When I want to speed up again the revs move back up to about 2k then something bumps (a single jolt to say I now have control of the power again).

Also gear changes are very announced when in automatic, very unsmooth.

I've also seen some strange behaviour with the revs as well, not sure if it's related? In automatic if I accelerate hardish then sometimes the rev neddle will just stop dead even as my speed increases until it changes gear.

It's hard to believe this is all caused by the ATF.

[MattM]

Some more observations.

It seems that gear changes are very noticeable with a jerk, changing up or down or in auto produces the same results. Any ideas on this?

[princepugh]

Matt - you're not too far from HLM at Bromsgrove, if I were you I'd get a quote for the full flush as it sounds like this is a pre-requisite to any further investigations.

Alternatively, reading through the volvoxc article, it sounds like a job you could have a crack at if you've got somewhere to get the car out of the weather? Also sounds like there are options with the fluid, which could save a few pennies.

[MattM]

Yea I think I will take a stab at the fluid change next month.

[MattM]

Where can I get the fluid for the change? Also once it's done, do I have to get the dealer to reset something? Ta.

[Ians]

Hi on my BMW 525d I read on forums that they need auto gearbox oil changed and independent was going to charge me £200 with new filters so I would take the car to Volvo and let them look at it.
Just my opinion

[timbo_1975]

Thanks mds. It sounds quite tricky....

Not very tricky really- the hardest part is persuading the quick-connect fitting off at the rad cooler!

If you have a local good garage, they should be totally able to do the flush if you explain / show them this post, and provide 25litres of ATF!

I have done the same on my V70 and used Exol's Dexron III, which is gettable in 25l drums from my local ag merchant.

Shift quality improved markedly.

[MattM]

25l? why so much?

Can someone point me in the right direction to get the correct ATF and a decent price? The only thing I've found so far is this http://www.elkparts.com/saab-95-m98/service-items/lubricants--fluids/automatic-transmission-fluid-5spd-1lbrsaab-95-93ss.p1911.html

[HammyUK]

I've just been quoted for this at my local Volvo dealer and they want £246.
2 x 4lts
2 x 1lts plus labour and software.

Even they know about the issue as I was picking up the B4 servo cover at the same time.
BUT as far as they are concerned there is no "official" recall or notice even thought there is a HUGE case in the states about it but "they know nothing" here.

[MattM]

They won't even do a flush at my local volvo.

[timbo_1975]

[QUOTE=MattM;282440]25l? why so much? QUOTE]

At least 8 litres to flush with, then a further ~8 litres to refill with. ( I always let the box pump itself almost empty before refilling)

[MattM]

Thanks. I just need to buy the stuff now.

If anyone can recommend a cheap place that would be fantastic.

[MattM]

Just found out that this car had some gear box work done in 2007. Something about a solenoid replacement cost over £1,000. Does this mean anything to people here and could to relate to my issue?

[HammyUK]

My guess would be the B4 servo for flare issues that ALL 01/02 boxes suffer with.

[Nigel T5]

Hi there,
when I got my 2001 Y reg with 142,000 miles the box was jumpy, cluncky etc. Local stealer did a software upgrade for me and that helped. Eventually went to a speacialist auto box chap in huddersfield it took him 5 weeks to find the new valve body (the bit that causes all the problems) he replaced it and the box has been great ever since, He can also do a full flush that he recommends is done every 30000 miles or so. Downside of this was the repair total was £1800!!!!!

[skyhopper]

hello guys thank you for your help in this problem i have a 02 plate v70 t5 geartronic and mine is doing the same £50 for dio at volvo it says softwear update and change fluid gonna get her booked in tomoz also ive been putting cheap petrol in so i will start to put v power in from now on cheers guys i hope it will sort the problem out a used gearbox is 600 dread too think what a new one would be 2 k easy

[argyllt5]

thanks mds, great info. it did the said atf flush. but didnt realise its got mor than 3 lts in the system. yeah black/brown burnt oil that looks like mud came out. will need to get some more and flush it out completely. i stuck some comma dexron 2 in just to see what difference it makes. as it feels as though every gear is slipping...badly. since changing just 3 lts it is alot better but not perfect. when going slowly say in 1st or 2nd the car judders bad.im hoping the oil change will sort it out. if not then another geartronic box will be on order!.....good info cheers ;-))

[stephenevans99]

I'd make sure that the ATF you're using is suitable. I believe you should be using Mobil 3309. Using Dexron2 isn't going to help, it'll probably cause more trouble.

[Harvey]

To do a flush you need approx 8 litres,Volvo did my oil change,software reset/update,the oil was not very clean/red.
But the change to the box was huge really good,I think it cost £180 all in .
the oil is not cheap but be very carefull what oil you use,if it's wrong it can destroy the box.