Remapped t5 Vs V70R/S60R

[macV70R]

I'm thinking about getting another volvo and was wondering if there was much difference from a mapped T5 (260bhp) compared to an R?
Anyone had or driven both? I know that a t5 is a better option for tuning due to the engine limitations etc but is there much difference between the two?
I know you get alot more toys on the R, but with the awd taking alot of the power it must be close??
you can get some nice high spec t5s for little money, saying that the s60r has come down in price considerably and is also a tempting purchase. Obviously running an s60r will be more than a t5.
Any info greatly appreciated!!

Mac

[Wobbly Dave]

personally I would fore go the R trinkets and get a 2.4l late T5 (my2005 or later). Far more fun IMHO.

[Storm-Troll]

I have to agree with Dave... I Had an R which I Just got rid of.. and I now have an S60 T5. I have to be honest... I Prefere the T5 to the R. A Totally different ride and feels more powerful. I had the boost tested and Its running naturally Higher than normal. and it hasnt been tuned yet so it pulls like Lightening... I woudnt go back to the R now... I can tune my T5 to a higher degree than I Possibly could safely with the R as the R engine is just a Bored out T5 engine. but being Bored out... the engine will be weaker under stress as its been bored away... just depends if u want all the Trinkets or not...

[Jimmie]

I have to agree with Dave... I Had an R which I Just got rid of.. and I now have an S60 T5. I have to be honest... I Prefere the T5 to the R. A Totally different ride and feels more powerful. I had the boost tested and Its running naturally Higher than normal. and it hasnt been tuned yet so it pulls like Lightening... I woudnt go back to the R now... I can tune my T5 to a higher degree than I Possibly could safely with the R as the R engine is just a Bored out T5 engine. but being Bored out... the engine will be weaker under stress as its been bored away... just depends if u want all the Trinkets or not...

I thought it was an S70R you had not an S60!.LOL

[Jaseb77]

I concur with Wobble Dave. A late model 2.4 T5 S60 (260BHP), when ran back to back with a S60R on a volvo test day. I found the S60 T5 just as much fun, and they remap well .

depends on how much you want the 4wd gubbins or not ( not for me ta)

[volvokid]

I thought it was an S70R you had not an S60!.LOL

Same here?????

[Murphy]

I would stick to the RS6 :)

However, I would agree an Volvo R would be better, and hold its money better at resale than a T5 that you stuck a couple of grand in modding.

[macV70R]

Think I will be keeping the RS aswell:), just looking for a nice motor to use everyday and enjoy.Still got the t4 but its the wifes and she complains when I steal it!
What does the t5 remap achieve? 300? I heard 340-360hp was the max on an R with a map and down pipe?

[Wobbly Dave]

As far as peak figures go - 330bhp crank for a late T5 is achieveable with those mods. At least that is what I have seen at HLM.

[Justin]

Think I will be keeping the RS aswell:), just looking for a nice motor to use everyday and enjoy.Still got the t4 but its the wifes and she complains when I steal it!
What does the t5 remap achieve? 300? I heard 340-360hp was the max on an R with a map and down pipe?

Indeed you are correct :)

The piston liners are thinner due to it being a bored out T5 lump and so any more than that and the risk of split liners goes up. 330bhp tuned by just about all of the companies, an extra 25-30 with the ferrita downpipe.

There are cars with claimed 400bhp but what other mods have been done i have no idea, as far as i know they are all in the US or Europe.

The difference is, whilst the power figures between the T5 and the R are not miles apart, the R would win all day long for me due to the 4wd, they just go as opposed to lots of smoke, new tyres often and not bad when they are rolling with the T5.

HTH ;)

[shemtek_racing]

Indeed you are correct :)

The piston liners are thinner due to it being a bored out T5 lump and so any more than that and the risk of split liners goes up. 330bhp tuned by just about all of the companies, an extra 25-30 with the ferrita downpipe.


HTH ;)

what a load of ££££££££!

[cornclose]

Which bit?

[Justin]

Nicely put, care to enlighten?

[shemtek_racing]

a remapped R will not make 330bhp nor will a remapped R with an exhaust make 360bhp! a remapped R with a full exhaust will just about make 330 and it wont be consistant without water injection or a better intercooler as the IAT will sky rocket.

[Justin]

Yes agreed, hence the bore cracking statement. However i am merely quoting publicized figures from every tuner in the world for these cars, perhaps you could choose your replies a little more carefully and state your opinion afterwards.

[shemtek_racing]

ok sorry about that reply......

but why post it if you dont agree?

im pretty sure there are R's running closed to 400hp without cracking liners as long as combustion temps are kept down it shouldnt be a problem unless u want 400+

[shemtek_racing]

infact ive just been made aware of an R running 432bhp / 600Nm on a stock engine

any cracked liners on modorately powered cars is down to bad tuning and/or poor maintenance

[p fandango]

infact ive just been made aware of an R running 432bhp / 600Nm on a stock engine
wonder how long that will last long


any cracked liners on modorately powered cars is down to bad tuning and/or poor maintenance
the cracked liners were a well known fault on the S60R & many tuners suffered from it, i believe even the Evolve democar suffered with it. If your starting with 300bhp & having to start doing extensive mods to get above 400bhp reliably i wouldn't call it a good starting block (no pun intended lol)

[shemtek_racing]

well its on 80k and 60k of them have been since tuned.

i know of t5 liners that have split running less than 400hp.

can you tell me which tuners suffered from it please?

who said anything about extensive mods? nothing extroidanary just the usual and a higher flowing turbo

[p fandango]

can you tell me which tuners suffered from it please?
Volvospeed might be able to help you out more, as already said the Evolve one springs straight to mind

[Justin]

I do know an MTE mapped car cracked a liner, other than that no idea.

I didnt say i didnt agree, the OP asked for info, to the best of my knowledge all of the tuners quote around 330bhp with a map, they cant all be wrong mate.........

[shemtek_racing]

so a development car cracked a liner? isnt that the whole point of a development car?

any others?

[shemtek_racing]

I do know an MTE mapped car cracked a liner, other than that no idea.

I didnt say i didnt agree, the OP asked for info, to the best of my knowledge all of the tuners quote around 330bhp with a map, they cant all be wrong mate.........

did you say the same when chiptuning was advertising 310bhp from a t5 with just a map?

a consistant 330hp from just a map on an R is not possible

[Justin]

Like i said, thats all i know of, feel free to furbish us with others, as you seem to know more about it :)

[p fandango]

I do know an MTE mapped car cracked a liner, other than that no idea.
oh i think that hit a nerve lol


so a development car cracked a liner? isnt that the whole point of a development car?

any others?
developement car or not, it cracked a liner so it was obviously a weakness

[p fandango]

LINK (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?p=182148#post182148) :confused:

[shemtek_racing]

LINK (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?p=182148#post182148) :confused:

look at the date i joined and when that was posted? i had no otherway of knowing other than what i read like most of the people on here. but since then i decided to instead believe what you read go out there and get first hand experience....

[shemtek_racing]

no nerves hit here mate to me a delelopment car will run hardware/software that is still in development so its very likely it came across a bad tune at some point. what mods was it running?

can you tell me who was maintaining the MTE car that cracked a liner? id like to hear from the owner of this car say why they think it cracked a liner as i believe he his a VPC member

i know an MTE equipeed car which has done over 5000 track miles, been to The Ring, and gotten through 4 sets of brake pads in the last year because of the amount of track usage its had, and its been 100% reliable!!!

pedro do you know why it is that stock R (and focus ST) engines have been splitting liners - yes it is a known weakness but it does not need tuning to push it over the edge - the cars just need the most basic of things fitted, a boost gauge!!

over boosting from air leaks is a common cause which again points to inproper maintenance.

i get the feeling theres abit of R bashing on VPC from people with no direct experience of them which isnt really fair to say the least.

[p fandango]

look at the date i joined and when that was posted? i had no otherway of knowing other than what i read like most of the people on here. but since then i decided to instead believe what you read go out there and get first hand experience....
do you not think that the original posts you read concerning the problems were based on someone's first hand knowlegde, or do you think someone just decided one day "i know, i'll make a humour up about weak cylinder liners?" & just happened to be quite close to the mark

[shemtek_racing]

like i said i would like to hear this from the person who has first hand experience as you do not.

look at my previous post:

"yes it is a known weakness but it does not need tuning to push it over the edge"

so clearly i am not saying there isnt a weakness. what i am saying is a car that is properly maintained and properly tuned should not stress the liners in the first place.

[p fandango]

no nerves hit here mate to me a delelopment car will run hardware/software that is still in development so its very likely it came across a bad tune at some point. what mods was it running?
totally agree the car won't be 100%, but what component was it that failed first? So doesn't that make it the weakness of the engine


i know an MTE equipeed car which has done over 5000 track miles, been to The Ring, and gotten through 4 sets of brake pads in the last year because of the amount of track usage its had, and its been 100% reliable!!!
is that running 430bhp?


pedro do you know why it is that stock R (and focus ST) engines have been splitting liners - yes it is a known weakness but it does not need tuning to push it over the edge - the cars just need the most basic of things fitted, a boost gauge!!

over boosting from air leaks is a common cause which again points to inproper maintenance.
yes i had read that, if something so simple is the cause of so much damage then i defo aint getting one lol. Imagine how bad there going to get when the cars get old & the pipes start going hard & perishing, you'll be having to replace all the pipes every 2 years just to save the engine. Were obviously not talking mayor airleaks here or the ECU would of thrown a fault & gone into limp home


i get the feeling theres abit of R bashing on VPC from people with no direct experience of them which isnt really fair to say the least.
the R was never going to win my heart in the first place as i'm not a fan of 4 wheel drive, & after all the bad press gone around following the launch it hasn't been the exact flaghship it was intended as has it. Never had any problems when the 850 T-5R came out

[p fandango]

like i said i would like to hear this from the person who has first hand experience as you do not.
have you got an S60R then?


look at my previous post:

"yes it is a known weakness but it does not need tuning to push it over the edge"

so clearly i am not saying there isnt a weakness. what i am saying is a car that is properly maintained and properly tuned should not stress the liners in the first place.
back in 1993 Volvo experimented with making the first 850 T-5's a 2.5, even the press release states they changed there mind about this & made a special 2.3 block becuase of issues with the cylinder walls & thinkness between them. Now i don't believe for a minute Volvo had a problem with airleaks or even "proper tuning" on the test engine they made, so there obviously is an limit to what can be got out of them reliably.

[Justin]

no nerves hit here mate to me a delelopment car will run hardware/software that is still in development so its very likely it came across a bad tune at some point. what mods was it running?

can you tell me who was maintaining the MTE car that cracked a liner? id like to hear from the owner of this car say why they think it cracked a liner as i believe he his a VPC member

i know an MTE equipeed car which has done over 5000 track miles, been to The Ring, and gotten through 4 sets of brake pads in the last year because of the amount of track usage its had, and its been 100% reliable!!!

pedro do you know why it is that stock R (and focus ST) engines have been splitting liners - yes it is a known weakness but it does not need tuning to push it over the edge - the cars just need the most basic of things fitted, a boost gauge!!

over boosting from air leaks is a common cause which again points to inproper maintenance.

i get the feeling theres abit of R bashing on VPC from people with no direct experience of them which isnt really fair to say the least.

I believe the owner of that car is in Japan. Where is this car thats done 5000 miles of track and who owns it, proof please.

The cars are splitting liners because "The liners are thinner and weaker on that engine" what causes it really is irrelevant, they split because they are too thin.

R bashing, lol. I have owned 2 S60R's and loved them both, yet due to this very issue moved to Audi for more power, i didnt want to risk the thin liners cracking!

You seem to be very defensive of something, yet wont say what, you seem to have all the answers yet you have shown none of the evidence of what you stated....whats the agenda here?

[irf]

its no secret, pretty sure shems referring to pyaaps S60R, not sure how to prove 5k track miles but i've been with him to the ring and been a passenger at a trackday as have many others on different days. On the day i was there the car hardly rested. One driver would go out(there were three), come back in, engine wouldn't turn off and then the next person would take it out. Only rest it got was at lunchtime. I put some pics up on t5d5 somewhere justin, have a look lol.

[cornclose]

& after all the bad press gone around following the launch it hasn't been the exact flaghship it was intended as has it.

As an R newbie, what was this bad press ? Is it all relating to the AWD system and the failing transfer boxes ? Or is the cracked liner issue more prevelant than it appears to be ?

[stephenevans99]

Sorry to interrupt, but as someone with very limited mechanical knowledge, can I ask what symptoms a S60 R would show if the liners were cracked or split?

Steve

[Justin]

its no secret, pretty sure shems referring to pyaaps S60R, not sure how to prove 5k track miles but i've been with him to the ring and been a passenger at a trackday as have many others on different days. On the day i was there the car hardly rested. One driver would go out(there were three), come back in, engine wouldn't turn off and then the next person would take it out. Only rest it got was at lunchtime. I put some pics up on t5d5 somewhere justin, have a look lol.

No further explanation needed irf, i had no idea pyaap was in an S60R. Whats the car running?

[irf]

Afaik an MTE map, water injection and i think a full exhaust, think because it's very quiet in the car. Somehow i forgot that i've actually been to 2 trackdays with him, castle combe and goodwood.

[p fandango]

As an R newbie, what was this bad press ? Is it all relating to the AWD system and the failing transfer boxes ? Or is the cracked liner issue more prevelant than it appears to be ?
the AWD was issued at first but the main slagging off i recall was the over exaggerated 300BHP claim

[Jimmie]

but the main slagging off i recall was the over exaggerated 300BHP claim

Doesn’t all manufactures and some owners do that also ?.;)

[p fandango]

Doesn’t all manufactures and some owners do that also ?.;)
oh yeh manufactures have been doing it for years (i remember they only recently finding out the press Jaguar E-type was made of aluminium), but perhaps Volvo went a bit too far which is why it was picked up on

[volvokid]

oh yeh manufactures have been doing it for years (i remember they only recently finding out the press Jaguar E-type was made of aluminium), but perhaps Volvo went a bit too far which is why it was picked up on

By how much did they go O/T? They bloody feel fast and surely cant be that far out are they?

[p fandango]

Buy how much did they go O/T? They bloody feel fast and surely cant be that far out are they?
i've no idea what the true figure is, but reading on others forums i don't one has reached the 300bhp on an independant dyno

[shemtek_racing]

i've no idea what the true figure is, but reading on others forums i don't one has reached the 300bhp on an independant dyno

it is true they dont quite seem to make the 300hp out the box but get pretty close.


have you got an S60R then?


back in 1993 Volvo experimented with making the first 850 T-5's a 2.5, even the press release states they changed there mind about this & made a special 2.3 block becuase of issues with the cylinder walls & thinkness between them. Now i don't believe for a minute Volvo had a problem with airleaks or even "proper tuning" on the test engine they made, so there obviously is an limit to what can be got out of them reliably.

no pedro i dont have an R. 3 of my firends do though. we are all agreed the liners are not as strong as the 2.3 engines. but that isnt what im trying to put across.


I believe the owner of that car is in Japan. Where is this car thats done 5000 miles of track and who owns it, proof please.

The cars are splitting liners because "The liners are thinner and weaker on that engine" what causes it really is irrelevant, they split because they are too thin.

R bashing, lol. I have owned 2 S60R's and loved them both, yet due to this very issue moved to Audi for more power, i didnt want to risk the thin liners cracking!

You seem to be very defensive of something, yet wont say what, you seem to have all the answers yet you have shown none of the evidence of what you stated....whats the agenda here?

as said by irf i am reffering to pyaaps S60R which has been completely reliable.

justin the 430hp R is from singapore not japan. just saying that the liners are thinner and weaker is hardly a valid point we already know this. i asked why people have split them? further more the casue is far from irrelevant! thats like saying the casue of bent rods in a T5 is irrelevant.

you said you moved away from the R's because of this issue did this happen to you?

my agenda? quite simply to put across my opinion which has been made from expereince and not from what i have read on the internet.

justin - you've asked for evidence but i dont see any from you your pedro


the AWD was issued at first but the main slagging off i recall was the over exaggerated 300BHP claim

the angle gear was a recall to be fixed/updated and i personelly havnt heard of this being an issure since


totally agree the car won't be 100%, but what component was it that failed first? So doesn't that make it the weakness of the engine


is that running 430bhp?


yes i had read that, if something so simple is the cause of so much damage then i defo aint getting one lol. Imagine how bad there going to get when the cars get old & the pipes start going hard & perishing, you'll be having to replace all the pipes every 2 years just to save the engine. Were obviously not talking mayor airleaks here or the ECU would of thrown a fault & gone into limp home


the R was never going to win my heart in the first place as i'm not a fan of 4 wheel drive, & after all the bad press gone around following the launch it hasn't been the exact flaghship it was intended as has it. Never had any problems when the 850 T-5R came out

evening pedro, glad you agree about the possibility of it not being 100%. i will agree that it can be a weakness under certain circumstances like in the above.

pyaaps car makes approx 330hp IIRC there is a graph on t5d5 if you would like to have a look. CLICKY (http://forums.t5d5.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=6833&view=findpost&p=79369)

the hoses on an R are pretty much identical to those on my T5 (p2) and there is no evidance of them ever being changed in my cars history which has done 160k and hasnt had any boost leaks in the 3 yrs that ive owned it. again a boost gauge would show any fluctuation in boost if a boost leak appeared so this need not be an issue.

im not trying to win you over pedro i am also a fan of 2wd. but most of the comments in this thread are from bad press and forum discussion. i would however consider an R in the future as the 4wd does work on track especially with track spec ARB's. i agree the car has gone under the radar but i dont think this is solely down to bad press.

The R cars are not perfect, but for what they cost now, I really can't see anyone getting a better standard Volvo package - handling is already there and brakes are already there, the only thing is engine performance and I know from experience it gives much more powerful cars like 911s and Merc AMGs are very hard time on track!

sorry if ive missed anything

can i ask again who was maintaning the MTE car that cracked a liner?

shem.

[Justin]

No need for further clarification, irfs word is good enough for me, as stated, i wasnt aware pyaap had an R :)

Thankfully niether of mine suffered the issue, although i had a blown turbo and and angle gear.

Evidence from me? I merely quoted the average power figures from the major tuners, the rest google is the culprit not myself :)

Thanks for clearing your points up though :)

[Storm-Troll]

I thought it was an S70R you had not an S60!.LOL

I Did have an S70R.. But I Now Have the S60. sorry for any confusion... :sorry:

[p fandango]

no pedro i dont have an R. 3 of my firends do though. we are all agreed the liners are not as strong as the 2.3 engines. but that isnt what im trying to put across.
but that was the point raised against having an R compared to a normal T-5


justin the 430hp R is from singapore not japan. just saying that the liners are thinner and weaker is hardly a valid point we already know this. i asked why people have split them? further more the casue is far from irrelevant! thats like saying the casue of bent rods in a T5 is irrelevant.
so just the one car has been able to get over 400bhp & fine with the liners? My car can boost to 20.8psi using the stock ECU doesn't mean they all can


the angle gear was a recall to be fixed/updated and i personelly havnt heard of this being an issure since
but it was still a problem at launch which should of been tested/solved before released to the public, especially when this problem relates all the way back to the P1 V70R AWD. Thats why they got bad press about it


evening pedro, glad you agree about the possibility of it not being 100%. i will agree that it can be a weakness under certain circumstances like in the above.
nothing can be 100% reliable, anything under certain conditions will break


pyaaps car makes approx 330hp IIRC there is a graph on t5d5 if you would like to have a look. CLICKY (http://forums.t5d5.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=6833&view=findpost&p=79369)
not exactly a prime example to prove the liner/bhp theory then


the hoses on an R are pretty much identical to those on my T5 (p2) and there is no evidance of them ever being changed in my cars history which has done 160k and hasnt had any boost leaks in the 3 yrs that ive owned it. again a boost gauge would show any fluctuation in boost if a boost leak appeared so this need not be an issue.
so are you saying the hoses are weaker on S60R's as well now then?


im not trying to win you over pedro i am also a fan of 2wd. but most of the comments in this thread are from bad press and forum discussion. i would however consider an R in the future as the 4wd does work on track especially with track spec ARB's. i agree the car has gone under the radar but i dont think this is solely down to bad press.
thanks but my point before was that bad press has come from somewhere, yes you do get some info from people talking bs from competition trying to rob sales, or people covering up but can't see how this can be the case here


The R cars are not perfect, but for what they cost now, I really can't see anyone getting a better standard Volvo package - handling is already there and brakes are already there, the only thing is engine performance and I know from experience it gives much more powerful cars like 911s and Merc AMGs are very hard time on track!
but how many people what "a standard package", i don't think there are many cars on here that are stock. Agreed they are a bargain, but there are plenty of issues (ie must be 100% serviced on time) & when they do go wrong its going to cost

[shemtek_racing]

Yaaaaawn! no matter what i say pedro you and your little friend will question it and twist my words! i say that the s60r hoses are pretty much identical to my car and you say that im saying the hoses are weaker????????????????

i have accepted some of you comments and explained myself as well as i can. justin has acknowlodged what have been saying even if i did start off a little hasty but i did apoligize for that.

im very happy your car car boost to 20psi thats great have fun with it.

also my question about who was maintaining the mte car was never asnwered?

i know who it was just makes me laff that no one on here will say

[shemtek_racing]

also if your not servicing your car 100% on time then in my eyes your an idiot

[p fandango]

Yaaaaawn! no matter what i say pedro you and your little friend will question it and twist my words! i say that the s60r hoses are pretty much identical to my car and you say that im saying the hoses are weaker????????????????
well it has got to be one or the other, many people say its caused by BHP but you say its maintance. Sorry to disapoint you again but i have my own braincells, i'd be interested to hear who you think i'm in talk with tho?


i have accepted some of you comments and explained myself as well as i can. justin has acknowlodged what have been saying even if i did start off a little hasty but i did apoligize for that.
& i have accepted some of your comments, i just question the ones that don't add up tho


im very happy your car car boost to 20psi thats great have fun with it.
oh don'tyou worry i'll be having great fun, that wasn't the point of my example tho


also my question about who was maintaining the mte car was never asnwered?

i know who it was just makes me laff that no one on here will say
tbh i've got no idea about the MTE car, where it is what happened or who is in charge of it. Which is why i haven't refered to it

[p fandango]

also if your not servicing your car 100% on time then in my eyes your an idiot
thats an opinion your entitled to, i've seen cars serviced to the book & in worse state than my own (my S60 anyway lol) & tbh i've no idea what its service history is like

[cornclose]

:-)

[shemtek_racing]

much better things to do than carry on with this.

the MTE car that cracked a liner was maintained by RT.

not servicing your car when within the required intervals is just stupid you crack on mate

night

[p fandango]

& there we go, all becomes clear

[Adge]

So, to summarise, if I change my C70 T5 for an S60, I would look for the S60T5!!?? Would I regret getting rid of a perfectly running C70?

[volvokid]

So, to summarise, if I change my C70 T5 for an S60, I would look for the S60T5!!?? Would I regret getting rid of a perfectly running C70?

Try driving both that’s the easy answer.
I think the R is far superior to the T5; the R looks better, handles amazing compared to any other Volvo and would eat a standard T5 for breakfast, its only when you are going into serious modifying the T5 would be better in the long run, a simple remap wont make a T5 as fast as an R. But its not just performance its the little R touches that make it stand way above the T5.

[straight5]

Im far from knowledgable on Volvos, but I run a standard T5 and have had a ride in an R. It didnt seem noticably quicker in the dry, although it could get get away from the line much better with the added traction. I imagine this is even more noticable through the winter, as with my front wheel drive you really have to get moving a bit before you can give it any serious power. What sort of power do get at the wheels on the standard versions. Im interested to know the diference in loss from the crank to the wheels.