front end wobble!!!

[Nigel T5]

Hi guys, new boy here and very much enjoying the threads (MAF sensor cleaned already saving £100 ++++).

I have a V70 phase II T5 bril car love it to bits with olive green leather. Over the past few months I have had the geartronic rebuilt (£2000!!ouch) front drivers side driveshaft (£500) two lower arms, front shockers and mounts. And inlet manifiold pipe (carries the temp and flow meters)
Still getting a rather groovy wobble at 60-80 and the car feels a bit lumpy at slow speeds over our countrys not so smooth roads. Im thinkin rod ends, drop rods have been done already. Additonal to this getting wheel arch rub on full lock turning left but nothing on turning right???? WTF.

Any advise on this would be great she is a lovely car but these things are driving me nuts!!!

cheers folks

[mikouk]

getting wheel arch rub on full lock turning left but nothing on turning right???? WTF.

I get this too. What size are your wheels out interest? Mine are 18's with 225's on. Sorry can't help with the other issues as I am a little bit dim when it comes to anything more technical than filling the Washers!

Welcome to the site btw.

[cornclose]

If you're getting rub on one side and not the other, check the stop locks that are fixed to the lower wishbones. One could be knackered, the other ok. This assumes of course that you have the same size wheel/tyre on either side!

Track rod ends being worn is a common cause for wobble on the V70 (apparently), but also get wheels balanced properly, and it probably wouldn't go amiss to have the wheels tracked too (at least the fronts, preferably a full four wheel align...).

Out of interest, how much was the inlet manifiold pipe ? I presume the one you mean is the one with the IAT and MAP sensors in it, the one between the intercooler and throttle module ? I think I need (read: want) a new one on mine...

[dave stew]

Also check the inner steerring track rods (the one that pivots with the suspension inside the rubbber bellows on the steering rack) as this is a known weak point. I am on my second replacements in 30k miles.

[thebadger]

Could be a duff shock, it would give a bad feel to the car through frequency vibration/road surface ripples.

Has it only happened since the change to the front end? If so, then all the bits on the list are possibles. Wheel alingnment & track rods (had my ones done within 1 month of getting my car) also the bushes on the arms, if they were not done... might be the weak point in what has been done!

[Nigel T5]

I get this too. What size are your wheels out interest? Mine are 18's with 225's on. Sorry can't help with the other issues as I am a little bit dim when it comes to anything more technical than filling the Washers!

Welcome to the site btw.

Wheels are 225/45/17 somebody has suggested I go for 225/40 to reduce the shoulder height


If you're getting rub on one side and not the other, check the stop locks that are fixed to the lower wishbones. One could be knackered, the other ok. This assumes of course that you have the same size wheel/tyre on either side!

Track rod ends being worn is a common cause for wobble on the V70 (apparently), but also get wheels balanced properly, and it probably wouldn't go amiss to have the wheels tracked too (at least the fronts, preferably a full four wheel align...).

Out of interest, how much was the inlet manifiold pipe ? I presume the one you mean is the one with the IAT and MAP sensors in it, the one between the intercooler and throttle module ? I think I need (read: want) a new one on mine...

Lock stops were new with the new lower arms (not volvo) although the arms measure up exactley the same size, and yes the wheels are the same size! The inlet manifold pipe thing is called a Charge Air pipe it runs from under the inlet manifold across then forwards next to the radiator it was £80 for stealer.


Also check the inner steerring track rods (the one that pivots with the suspension inside the rubbber bellows on the steering rack) as this is a known weak point. I am on my second replacements in 30k miles.

Im not the greatest on mechanical pictures and diagrams really help! any chance of a piccy/pointer?


Could be a duff shock, it would give a bad feel to the car through frequency vibration/road surface ripples.

Has it only happened since the change to the front end? If so, then all the bits on the list are possibles. Wheel alingnment & track rods (had my ones done within 1 month of getting my car) also the bushes on the arms, if they were not done... might be the weak point in what has been done!

Everthing has been replaced bit by bit to see if it could eradicate the problem. Arms came with new bushes fitted, 4 wheel alignment carried out after fitting shocks (last item fitted).

It really is becoming an AGGGHHH moment as we are going to france in the beast in August.

Must say you fellows are pretty bloody quick, fanastic response so thank you all so far

[cornclose]

What about wheels balanced ? Don't think you mentioned that.

[Nigel T5]

wheel balance done all good

[thebadger]

Warped brake disc?

[v70torslanda]

I used to own a Honda Accord which had the most horrible wobble imaginable. We eventually traced it to a seizing brake caliper. To give you some idea of how badly maintained this car had been, the garage had ground the edge off the brake pad to get them to fit! FFS! Proper clean and sort out and it went away. Didn't even need to replace the caliper.

Tell me. Before you had the wishbones replaced,how old were the tyres? IME once the tyres have 'shouldered' or 'worn to the tracking' they follow camber and tramline and there is nothing you can do but change them. BTW don't change your tyres for a lower profile, you will make the ride harsher and change the gearing. If you do you will soon get bored of the engine screaming its nuts off just keeping up with motorway traffic. Been there, done that, got the (very expensive) t-shirt!

luv'n'stuff

J

[Nigel T5]

Will get the discs and calipers checked, although the wobble is more remote from the steering it feels like the wheels are bouncing around as though they arent attached properly if you know what i mean (they are all bolted on proper, checked that as well!) as if they are are loose on the steering rack, although when i lob it into a corner feels very solid.

[thebadger]

Hmm, have you checked behind the wheels, made sure there's nothing fouling the hub/face of the axle? Could be a bit of rubbish making it sit funny.

Still sounds like brakes tho.

[RobbieH]

Don't have an answer but maybe a couple of pointers.

"Lock stops were new with the new lower arms (not volvo) although the arms measure up exactley the same size".

So the lower arms (wishbones) were not original Volvo? Were they Scantech by chance? I've heard that Scantech do not have a good reputation where metal/bonded parts are involved, such as the bushes on wishbones and the quality / lifetime has been questioned.

Just before changing my front end (wishbones, bushes, shocks, springs, drop links) I changed the tyres andthe difference was amazing in it's own right. Previous tyres were 225/17/45 GoodYearEagle F1's almost dowwn to the wear markers. Horrible ride, wandering, tramlining, poor grip, noisy. Changed to GoodYear Excellence.
Improved ride, grip, reduced tramlining, much less noise, etc.

The other thing is to check the bolts on the various parts that have been changed. Have they been reused, threadlocked, have any loosened after bedding in again? I've read advice, particularly after having things "Powerflexed", to have the various torques checked.

HTH

[Nigel T5]

Hi Robbie, tyres are due for change, Ill get the guy to check his work over while he is there. I note from your avtar your a bit of a cyclist as well, whats the bike? what club do you ride for? me Im retford wheelers the other passion in my life curently in the process of buying is a wilier Mortirolo with veloci group.

[v70torslanda]

Hi Nigel

I'm currently building this:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/various145.jpg

Hmmm. Must remember to buy some cranks . . .

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/various143.jpg

All steel I'm afraid. Its the only thing that can cope with my weight!

J

[RobbieH]

rather than steal this thread I did start one a couple of years ago so I've taken the liberty to copy these last two posts and resurrect that thread.
http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15799

[Nigel T5]

Hi Guys, the saga continues. After visiting Dave Pengelly in Nottingham (what a service!!!) he stated the lower arms are upside down and on the wrong side! Went back to bloke who originally fitted them and he couldnt see how!. Has anybody got pictures / photos of the lower arm in place so as to enable correct diagnosis of fitment, it would help a great deal.

Cheers fellas

[cornclose]

If that were the case, then the ball joints wouldn't be able to be seated properly as far as I can imagine...

[EDIT] Here are some pictures of wishbones that John posted a few weeks back. Not sure how they can be put on the wrong way without serious issues!

LINKY (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showpost.php?p=238199&postcount=23)

See the concave socket that the ball joints fit into ? If they're the wrong way, not only would the geometry of the front be all wrong, but the ball joints would have nothing to 'sit' in! Might be worth confirming with Dave at DPA exactly what he meant. Unless I have totally misread your post...

[Tomcat]

Hi Guys, the saga continues. After visiting Dave Pengelly in Nottingham (what a service!!!) he stated the lower arms are upside down and on the wrong side! Went back to bloke who originally fitted them and he couldnt see how!. Has anybody got pictures / photos of the lower arm in place so as to enable correct diagnosis of fitment, it would help a great deal.

Cheers fellas


How is it even possible to put a lower arm on upside down?, you wouldn't get it to attach to the hub!, also if they where on the wrong way around the lock stop would be at the back not the front. To rule out the tyres why not switch the backs to the fronts and visa/versa, if the ride is still the same then it's not the wear on the tyre that's the problem.

[cornclose]

It might be possible to put it on the wrong way round! Never tried, but I bet you'd get all kinds of suspension problems, bad wobble, for example...

[thebadger]

Oh well, I was Waaaaaay off with my brakes theory!

I assume the "repair" which you needed has been reported to local trading standards, I mean the car could have come apart at speed!

Not much to mop up after the wole front suspension collapses at 70mph... I'd guess the car could flip at that speed.

That just sounds mental as far as mistakes go... How did they even get them to stay on?

Good job that the guys you went to could spot that one easily enough!

I really am very shocked at this one guys... I mean... come on! Really!

[cornclose]

I think we need to wait for Nigel to come back and confirm if that was actually the case. Sounds very dodgy though!

[thebadger]

Like I said Chris, could have gone VERY wrong. I would take it as far as possible if it has been their error.

I mean, you would see how the old one was fitted & look at them, see the new ones & pick up the right one. Or am I being just too practical/sensible?

[dave stew]

Having done the wishbones, I can't honestly see how you'd fit them incorrectly. The front and rear fittings are completely different.

This is the only serious post you'll get from me today!

[cornclose]

No i think you're being quite sensible about it - I honestly can't see how anyone (not even a novice) could remove and then refit new wishbones the wrong way round! Hence my scepticism about this actually being the case!

I've no reason to doubt Dave at DPA - he's a top chap, recently did all of my suspension work, and certainly knows what he's talking about, as do all his mechanics, many of who'm are fully Volvo trained! His new one he just took on was straight from Stratstones around the corner.

I just find it unbelievable if this turns out to be the case, and as you say, the garage who fitted them should be taken to the cleaners!

[thebadger]

My option would not be cleaners... would start with a C tho... ending in 'ourts!

[Nigel T5]

OH my word what a can of worms, Dave had a good look and it took 15 minutes before he realised the problem. Basically the front arms left and right can be swopped over if you push and grunt hard enough. The locks stops will remain on the front of the arms! Imagine swinging the right arm directly under the car to the left hand side and re-attaching it does go (remarkably easy as well). When I went to the guy who originally fitted them he was shocked and has agreed to swap them over (if he can) he is sceptical that Dave has got it right (Im with Cornclose on this one). All I need to know is on the leg of the arm that doesnt carry the lock stops there is a moulded lump should this be facing up or down. Once I know that Ill be able to figure out who is right.

[cornclose]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'on the leg of the arm that doesnt carry the lock stops there is a moulded lump' - I can't see one on mine and can't see any on those pictures I linked to earlier.

All I can say is that on those pictures I linked to earlier (these) (http://www.vpcuk.org/forums/showpost.php?p=238199&postcount=23), all of them show the wishbone in the correct orientation. That is they are positioned with the top facing up. i.e. the concave socket for the ball joint is at the top.

The end of the wishbone that the hub attaches to should be pointing down to the road when fitted correctly. If they're pointing up, it's wrong. In other words, the two arms of the wishbone should be higher along their length than the tip of the wishbone where the hub attaches...

Most visible in this image :-

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/shedbike/various117.jpg

This is the offside (driver's side) wishbone...

Does this make sense ?

This is of course if mine are correctly fitted (by DPA) and Dave is indeed correct! However, I'm pretty sure mine is right...! Besides, as said earlier, I can't see how the ball joints could be fitted correctly if the wishbones were on the wrong side!

[Nigel T5]

This is a picture, with help from you all I think we have verified they are on upside down!!!! OMG.
Now to get it sorted and talk about some new tyres in recompense!!!!

[thebadger]

Yep, if it were me, Mums would be mentioned! Mums!

I'd get some legal council on this! (I really mean it) This could have caused a major accident, resulting in loss of vehicle, endangerment to other road users, endangerment to the public (pedestrians), potential liability under the road traffic act (unroadworthy vehicle), loss of life to others & loss of life to self!

To name but a few I'm guessing!

You could take this guy to the ****ing cleaners for that sort of screw up!

We're talking fines & possible jail time to you if you were caught by a shrewd polis!

I hope you get more than tyres out of it!

[Nigel T5]

I know its a good thing to look for compensation all the time, but Ive checked with the legals in my office (I work in car insurance as a claim investigator / mediator, if any one has a bump id be happy to advise!) Issue you can have is proving that catastrophic loss could of occured, even though they are not fitted to manufacturers spec, there is still a solid foundation for running gear. It would be very difficult to prove fault for incorrect fitting as they are not Volvo certified or a Volvo specialist, they can claim mitigation on reduced knowledge. So I think ill carry on with the let them offer what they can as compensation first, if they do me four tyres, fit new arms as these are now damaged and refund the total cost of the work originally carried out (£400 with other bits) then I might stay quite. Luckily I have photographic evidence (legally certified) and Dave Pengelly has agreed to do a report should it be required. But once again thanks for all your help guys, just proves this forum is a superb place to share advice.

[thebadger]

I do agree that it would be hard to prove, but if it had happened before we found this mistake out, we would have had an entirly different post on the go.

One where, in all likleyhood we'd be saying how sad about what happened to the car you used to enjoy driving which now is about £200 worth of scrap.

I hope the guy is reasonable, admits the mistake & agrees to correct this error at his cost & compensates for what he did to your car.

Mark the ones which are on the car with paint, or UV dye to allow you to visually verify he has replaced these now knackered bones. (idiots tend to be the biggest chancers)

Also get a letter from him stating he has corrected this issue (naming the fault) to prove he has made recompense for both of your sakes. (covers him, covers you)

And my final suggestion (I am full of them today!) is to never go back. He may not like you much after the fault has cost him a few hundred & he'll hurt from his mistake. Bad workmen are scornful of thoes who show them up. Take it to dave next time & he'll treat it right! I bet folk on here would line up to agree to that point, and most of this speil, but it's for the best!

[Nigel T5]

Ill will be able to tell if he changed them because the brake discs have grooved the arms!! (scratched really). And its fair to say I will never, ever trust them to go near any of my vehicles ever again. Although I appreciate the comment about the letter outlining the work to repair and any compensation forthcoming. Good thinking batman!!!! now why dont you go and have a lie down, I reckon youve done your good deeds for today.

[thebadger]

Get the discs replaced too, they may have been warped by the prolonged contact with the bones.

Probably filled the vents with muck too!

[Nigel T5]

no he can pay the cost of the discs being replaced! he might get that wrong as well!

[thebadger]

Yeah, probably put the springs on back to front, & the pads back in the wrong way!

[cornclose]

Christ! No wonder you had wobble then. I am utterly amazed. Really am. I mean, how the hell have the ball joints been attached!!?

[Nigel T5]

best of it is, when he fitted the arms he said they were a bugger to get in, and then when he fitted the new shocks a month later 'they were a ****' apparantly!

[thebadger]

Mate, my garage just fitted konis, which involve cutting up the original shocks to fit them, he also did a replacement of the tranny oil & he only charged me for 4 hours of work!

I'd guess 1 of thoes was spent flushing the gearbox & doing a refill!

He said it was a doddle, and I also know that the rear shocks are fitted by removing one bolt & one nut! (aproxx 20mins per rear shocker).

This guy you have delt with is clearly up for a Darwin award for the year!

I just hope he services his own car with the same level of questionable competence, and lives on a road with cliffs!

[cornclose]

Dave at DPA has just fitted all my new suspension. New rear springs and shocks, new rear top mounts, new rear drop links, new rear anti-roll bar, new front springs and shocks, new front top mounts, new front spring seats, new ball joints, and newly polybused front wishbones and new front IPD drop links! He also regassed the aircon at the same time.

For the whole lot above he charged me 5 hours labour, and did the aircon regass effectively for free, just charged me £20 for the gas itself.

It's not worth me getting the ramps and stands out for that! Can't rate him highly enough...

[lance]

Totally agree since Ive owned Volvos (2002) I wouldnt want to go anywhere else!

[thebadger]

I agree, you need to trust the guy who plays with the important stuff on your car!

How else can you trust the car!

[cornclose]

Oh, and don't forget to include in your calculations an amount for buggeration with all the things you've done/money you've spent/time and effort you've expended in trying to find out what the problem was in the first place!

For me, the aggro would 'cost' more !

[Nigel T5]

Hi all, quick update, following visit to Garage who did the original job, new arms (correct way up) and bottom bearing things (the arms lock on to under the hub!) all done. Didnt discuss compensation.... YET. He knows its coming just wasnt right time as place was very busy and if he is pushed into a corner in front of people he would have been difficult, just waiting for the right time.

Then went to DPA new tyres on front, checked all previous work and now on to the next problem (electrical!!!!!) but that is another thread to be started shortly.

Thing is drives like a bloody dream tight as a drum, can throw it around with real gusto. This is why I love my T5.

Again thanks for all the help, photos, suggestions and support. It really is appreciated.