new turbo... which one?

[jer,c70]

As i need a new turbo for my c70 me7, i want to up grade....
Which one is the best to buy ( not for silly money). and ware from?
Dose any one have any ideas?



oh dose any one no if my car will run without the cat? as i want to get rid of it when the stainless goes on next weekend,will it go in to limp mode or throw up lights on the dash? or is it best to put on a sport cat?

[Tim Williams]

If you C70 is a T5 it will have a 16T with an angled flange that can give great power and performance with the right hardware and map. The key is to get it to breath better, your exhaust will be a good start.

If you remove your cat you will need your rear Lamda sensor values shunting to avoid the engine management light coming on, a good sports cat will flow enough for over 500BHP so removing it should not be necessary on most cars.

[Wobbly Dave]

Depends on what your target BHP is and how big your pockets are.

[jer,c70]

i dont have deep pockets, but i like to go fast,
the turbo on my car is stating to smoke and i am using a little oil. so it has to be replaced, but i dont no what the upgrade to mine is, i am booked in to long life for a full staineless with sports cat, this sat, but i dont want to map her till the turbo has been changed, so i need to no what i need to get and where i get it from......

[Wobbly Dave]

Best advice would be to look for a nearly new or new 19T. Very capable turbo - not much more laggy than the 16T and properly mapped will make your car go like stink. Bonus also is that they are direct bolt-on.

[t5 pete]

theres brand new 19t turbos on ebay for £510 delivered
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VOLVO-850-S70-TD04HL-19T-6-Upgrade-Turbocharger-New_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1683Q7c66Q3a4 Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293Q3 a1Q7c294Q3a200QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZite m370191954135QQitemZ370191954135QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ 5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[volvolised]

stick with a 16T and get it to breathe as tim says, sort out the downpipe (3"), port the exhaust manifold, and get a decent map that can be upgraded as you mod further, you like speed...mod it right and these cars fly..would get the running gear sorted first though, no point having big bhp and it wont stop or handles like ****e...keep in touch with tim he realy does know alot about modding ...i have a 19T, and a s70 with a 16T and almost identical mods is only minor bhp/torque behind me...both of us 300bhp ++.....hth best of....

[siamblue]

Get the 16t rebuilt and port it at the same time, also get the later ME7 manifold or the 70r 2003> manifold and get that flowed, or you could get your 16t bored out to take the 18t wheel, a number of options that won't break the bank, you could do they above for less than a grand inc a MTE remap,



Gary

[PaulZX]

don't bother with a map, you won't NEED one, as a lot of people think. Get a 19T, a late me7 manifold, and MBC, and a bigger throttle housing, with a rolling road setup, should see you hitting 275bhp minimum, I got 291bhp from that way of working it, without a remap, so it's definetly possible to have more power than a RICA on the standard map... I've proved that this week....

[Al115]

don't bother with a map, you won't NEED one, as a lot of people think. Get a 19T, a late me7 manifold, and MBC, and a bigger throttle housing, with a rolling road setup, should see you hitting 275bhp minimum, I got 291bhp from that way of working it, without a remap, so it's definetly possible to have more power than a RICA on the standard map... I've proved that this week....

Cool - although I've seen (albeit very aggressively) mapped 16Ts hit 300bhp with a lot less work than you've done there! For my money I'd keep the 16T, port it maybe if you feel that way inclined, sort out the intake / exhaust and map the hell out of it, up to 280/290 maybe. Then when it dies you can buy another 16T for £150 on eBay and bolt it back on :D

[PaulZX]

Cool - although I've seen (albeit very aggressively) mapped 16Ts hit 300bhp with a lot less work than you've done there! For my money I'd keep the 16T, port it maybe if you feel that way inclined, sort out the intake / exhaust and map the hell out of it, up to 280/290 maybe. Then when it dies you can buy another 16T for £150 on eBay and bolt it back on :D

Fair play, for sure, that's a way, but you're pushing the turbo and conrods to their limits, where I'm "chillin" at 15 psi, (just under 1.1 bar) well within the safety limits for the conrods, and the turbo.

Over a two year period I'd imagine you'd struggle to keep your total costs below mine (just under £800 all-in, for those intrested...)

.... and I'm on a standard exhaust and airbox.... ;)

Not sayin you're wrong, don't misunderstand me, we each do things our own way, but there's not been much said about doing things the way I have, it's all "remap-remap-remap", when, being fair, you don't have to, and you can get better results in some cases.... It's nice to have another option...

[Wombatbomb]

don't bother with a map, you won't NEED one, as a lot of people think. Get a 19T, a late me7 manifold, and MBC, and a bigger throttle housing, with a rolling road setup, should see you hitting 275bhp minimum, I got 291bhp from that way of working it, without a remap, so it's definetly possible to have more power than a RICA on the standard map... I've proved that this week....


This should be entertaining......perhaps you can explain how you make an mbc work on an ME7 engine? In fact, whilst you're at it, how do you fit a larger throttle body to an ME7? Oh, and exactly how will the ME7 make use of a 19t without being mapped?

[PaulZX]

This should be entertaining......perhaps you can explain how you make an mbc work on an ME7 engine? In fact, whilst you're at it, how do you fit a larger throttle body to an ME7? Oh, and exactly how will the ME7 make use of a 19t without being mapped?

as I've not got one, I know jack about ME7 engines, I'm confident enough to presume this is where I stop sounding like I'm even referencing ME7 engines... An ME7 manifold.. now I can talk about that, that seems to work just great... lol :(

oh and chill a bit... you're comin across a tad agressive there chap...

[siamblue]

So what you are saying that a 19t on Orange injectors with a MBC and standard ecu is fine? i think something will be knocking on your door soon Fridge, especially when the ambient temps drop, i wouldn't even think about a MBC with that set up a EBC maybe at least that will try and control the spikes,
Good on ya for giving it a go though and saving some dosh, with no cableties in sight ;)

Gary

[PaulZX]

So what you are saying that a 19t on Orange injectors with a MBC and standard ecu is fine? i think something will be knocking on your door soon Fridge, especially when the ambient temps drop, i wouldn't even think about a MBC with that set up a EBC maybe at least that will try and control the spikes,
Good on ya for giving it a go though and saving some dosh, with no cableties in sight ;)

Gary

Well, I'm within the safety limits for boost pressure and fuel pressure, and I am running 291 with a slipping clutch on 95 ron petrol, you do the figures... lol only time will tell if it is fine or not...

[PaulZX]

This should be entertaining......perhaps you can explain how you make an mbc work on an ME7 engine? In fact, whilst you're at it, how do you fit a larger throttle body to an ME7? Oh, and exactly how will the ME7 make use of a 19t without being mapped?

yeah ok, I didn't read the ME7 bit, and jumped in with two feet, but that's me, at least I'm eager and not the alternative, eh?

[p fandango]

stick with a 16T and get it to breathe as tim says, sort out the downpipe (3"), port the exhaust manifold, and get a decent map that can be upgraded as you mod further, you like speed...mod it right and these cars fly..would get the running gear sorted first though, no point having big bhp and it wont stop or handles like ****e...keep in touch with tim he realy does know alot about modding ...i have a 19T, and a s70 with a 16T and almost identical mods is only minor bhp/torque behind me...both of us 300bhp ++.....hth best of....
as he's having to replace the turbo anyway i'd certainly think of upgrading it whilst at it

[p fandango]

So what you are saying that a 19t on Orange injectors with a MBC and standard ecu is fine? i think something will be knocking on your door soon Fridge, especially when the ambient temps drop, i wouldn't even think about a MBC with that set up a EBC maybe at least that will try and control the spikes,
Good on ya for giving it a go though and saving some dosh, with no cableties in sight ;)
Mike at High-tech did have an issue with the boost at first, but that turned out to be the actuator having no pre-load (& the fact its a 15g actuator probably doesn't help). He did turn the fuel pressure upto max & with the 19T running 15psi said the fuelling was spot on

except for blowing the intercooler pipes off a couple of times it ran fine on the way home, pulling very strong & consistantly

[S70T5Chris]

Can you post the dyno graph, so we can have a looksee? Does it have a afr/lamda plot on it? I can believe that you might be able to 'bodge it' so that it runs ok without a remap, but not in a million years is it ever going to be as powerful/safe/reliable without having a decent map.

[S70T5Chris]

as he's having to replace the turbo anyway i'd certainly think of upgrading it whilst at it

I'd agree if he wanted to buy a brand new turbo. You may as well spend the money on a 19t, price as a new 1i'm sure it's the same 6t. But on an ME7 car he WILL need a map to go with it. Later 16t's are easily available from volvo breakers for around the £100 - £150 mark. With the right mods, a 16t is much more impressive than people give it credit for.

[S70T5Chris]

Sorry just realised the link to the dyno graph in your sig! Not wishing to put down what you've achieved, i'm fairly impressed that you haven't had a remap. You say its producing 290hp, which yes I agree it is, but at 6500rpm? what use it that? My car (16t) produces over 300hp at 4500rpm. At 4500rpm your producing approx 220bhp. My car produces 375lb/ft torque at 4000rpm. 250lb/ft at 4750rpm is not exaclty impressive. You would see much higher gains with a proper remap. I would also like to see an afr/lamda plot, I would be very suprised if the fueling is ok.

[p fandango]

Sorry just realised the link to the dyno graph in your sig! Not wishing to put down what you've achieved, i'm fairly impressed that you haven't had a remap. You say its producing 290hp, which yes I agree it is, but at 6500rpm? what use it that?
having been in the car i can say the power is very usable, even with Paul shorter shiftiing than i would (i would of thrown it down a gear to overtake etc) it still had more than enough get-up-&-go than needed. Having not driven my own car for a while i'm just hoping he hasn't overtaken me on the power front lol


My car (16t) produces over 300hp at 4500rpm. At 4500rpm your producing approx 220bhp. My car produces 375lb/ft torque at 4000rpm. 250lb/ft at 4750rpm is not exaclty impressive. You would see much higher gains with a proper remap.
well done, & how much did your hybrid turbo & mapping cost? (& i bet your running alot more than 15psi). If you read all the post by either myself or FFM we have never argued you'll get more power with a remap, we're just experimenting with alternative ways


I would also like to see an afr/lamda plot, I would be very suprised if the fueling is ok.
If Mick with all his motor-racing experience (both building cars & racing them) says the fuelling is spot-on, then i think it is pretty much guaranteed the fuelling is ok. The car was put thru many slower build-up runs on the dyno before the power runs which the fueling & boost was checked to make you it was ok before being put thru the tougher power runs

[S70T5Chris]

having been in the car i can say the power is very usable, even with Paul shorter shiftiing than i would (i would of thrown it down a gear to overtake etc) it still had more than enough get-up-&-go than needed. Having not driven my own car for a while i'm just hoping he hasn't overtaken me on the power front lol


well done, & how much did your hybrid turbo & mapping cost? (& i bet your running alot more than 15psi). If you read all the post by either myself or FFM we have never argued you'll get more power with a remap, we're just experimenting with alternative ways


If Mick with all his motor-racing experience (both building cars & racing them) says the fuelling is spot-on, then i think it is pretty much guaranteed the fuelling is ok. The car was put thru many slower build-up runs on the dyno before the power runs which the fueling & boost was checked to make you it was ok before being put thru the tougher power runs

I'm not using a hybrid turbo. I'm using a 16t from an S60 T5. Granted my setup has cost more than the £800 spent on FlyinFridge's car, but simlar results to my car can be accomplished for much less than I have spent. Ok my 16t is running 1.25 Bar, hardly a collosal difference.

I'm not trying to slate the results on FFM's car, it's ok. But i'm far from impressed. Whacking on a MBC and upping the fuel pressure till it's maxed out IS NOT a good alternative to a decent remap IMO.

I would still like to see an AFR plot.

[p fandango]

I'm not trying to slate the results on FFM's car, it's ok. But i'm far from impressed. Whacking on a MBC and upping the fuel pressure till it's maxed out IS NOT a good alternative to a decent remap IMO.
no offence intended but given the choice of "your opinion" or that of a professional racer/engine builder which do you think i'd go with? Again if you read my posts you will see i've always agreed you will get more power with a remap, i'm just trying to show you don't have to be a sheep & you can try other mods to get results you'll be happy with


I would still like to see an AFR plot.
i'm afraid he didn't get one, we only got BHP & torque & i think the printer struggled with that lol

[PaulZX]

To be honest, I'm a little confused as to why the torque figure is so low, it was 275lb/ft @4250rpm on the standard eqipment +an mbc, I thought the torque would go up over the 300lb/ft mark after this work. Could the iffy actuator cause that?

[S70T5Chris]

no offence intended but given the choice of "your opinion" or that of a professional racer/engine builder which do you think i'd go with? Again if you read my posts you will see i've always agreed you will get more power with a remap, i'm just trying to show you don't have to be a sheep & you can try other mods to get results you'll be happy with


i'm afraid he didn't get one, we only got BHP & torque & i think the printer struggled with that lol

So what you're saying is your 'proffesional' racer/engine builder is of the opinion that manually controlling the boost by an MBC and cranking the fuel pressure up to the limit is better than having a 'proffesional' remap of the engine management system? I highly doubt it. I can't give my opinion on the AFR's as I haven't seen them.

I don't claim to know everything about everything. I just think it is very nieve to make a statement saying that a remap is uneccessary, it is IMO.

Judging by the dyno graph, it is my opinion that you would have ended up with a more drivable, better performing car, by simply getting an off the shelf remap for the standard car with the 15g. IMO the 19t is wasted with the current set up. You would probably see a lower 'peak' HP. But what's the point in having 290BHP at 6500rpm, right before you hit the limiter?!

Fair play for trying to be different, and 'if' you can end up with great results without the need for a remap, that's great. But I don't think thats what you've accomplished here.

[S70T5Chris]

To be honest, I'm a little confused as to why the torque figure is so low, it was 275lb/ft @4250rpm on the standard eqipment +an mbc, I thought the torque would go up over the 300lb/ft mark after this work. Could the iffy actuator cause that?

If you want my adivce, get saving for a custom remap. You've gone to all the effort and expense to achieve what you have so far. To really make the most of it, you need a good map.

You're currently not producing a stack more torque than the standard car! But the standard car produces it's peak torque much lower down the rev range making it much more drivable and responsive than what you've got now.

[p fandango]

So what you're saying is your 'proffesional' racer/engine builder is of the opinion that manually controlling the boost by an MBC and cranking the fuel pressure up to the limit is better than having a 'proffesional' remap of the engine management system? I highly doubt it. I can't give my opinion on the AFR's as I haven't seen them.
perhaps you can point out where in the thread Mick's opinion on ECU's/remapping has been posted? What has been said he was happy that the FFM's fuelling was spot-on.


Judging by the dyno graph, it is my opinion that you would have ended up with a more drivable, better performing car, by simply getting an off the shelf remap for the standard car with the 15g. IMO the 19t is wasted with the current set up. You would probably see a lower 'peak' HP. But what's the point in having 290BHP at 6500rpm, right before you hit the limiter?!
in your defence a description of the graph has not been posted here, but Mick took the lower end of the run easy as he experienced the clutch slipping which is why the graph is such a step & jumpy. 290bhp from a 15g lmao


Fair play for trying to be different, and 'if' you can end up with great results without the need for a remap, that's great. But I don't think thats what you've accomplished here.
i suppose that depends what you class as good results, having both driven many off-the-shelf remapped cars i know which is the more exciting drive. Having driven a remap from all the main companies & not being impressed really by any of them is the main reason i've stuck with MBC's/EBC's

PS just to show i'm not totally disagreeing with you my next mod is to sort the engine management

[S70T5Chris]

perhaps you can point out where in the thread Mick's opinion on ECU's/remapping has been posted? What has been said he was happy that the FFM's fuelling was spot-on.


in your defence a description of the graph has not been posted here, but Mick took the lower end of the run easy as he experienced the clutch slipping which is why the graph is such a step & jumpy. 290bhp from a 15g lmao


i suppose that depends what you class as good results, having both driven many off-the-shelf remapped cars i know which is the more exciting drive. Having driven a remap from all the main companies & not being impressed really by any of them is the main reason i've stuck with MBC's/EBC's

PS just to show i'm not totally disagreeing with you my next mod is to sort the engine management


You don't read so good do you...

My opinion was that a remap would be better than what you have done here. You then said you'd take the opinion of Super Mick (whoever this is) over mine. Implying that he thinks different to this. As I said earlier I haven't made an opinion on the fueling as I haven't seen what it's doing, only that i'd be suprised if it was bang on.

Where have I said 290bhp from a 15g? What I said was, if you read it again, that is my opinion that a remapped 15g would give a more drivable/useabale car than what you have here. YOU WOULD NOT SEE AS HIGHER 'PEAK' BHP, most likely, but overall end up with something better in terms of where the power and torque come in IMO.

Peak HP/torque doesn't mean £££££. What is relevant is at what point the HP/torque comes in at what revs, and how long it is sustained for. Although you've achieved a 'result' here, I think what you've really proved is that you can't get a really good result unless you have a remap.

'290bhp from a 15g lmao' Going back to this - I have seen car's producing this kind of power with a 15g. The 15g and 16t are highly underated and for some reason the 19t is seen as the holy grail of the turbo volvo world. Yes you would see a slightly higher top end performance from a 19t, it is bigger (but only a smidge), but not earth shatteringly different like most believe.

[Alan M]

Shaun850 pulled 340hp IIRC with a 15g on a Dyno dynamics roller a few weeks back.

[p fandango]

You don't read so good do you...
badly read, or badly written who knows lol


My opinion was that a remap would be better than what you have done here. You then said you'd take the opinion of Super Mick (whoever this is) over mine. Implying that he thinks different to this.
as we never even spoke to "Super Mick" about ECU's or remapping nor can i post on his behalf i have never given any of Mick's opinions on them. My comment about taking his word over yours was referring to the fuelling


As I said earlier I haven't made an opinion on the fueling as I haven't seen what it's doing, only that i'd be suprised if it was bang on.
is it me or is that a double negative, you "being surprised if it was bang on" isn't your opinion then?


Where have I said 290bhp from a 15g? What I said was, if you read it again, that is my opinion that a remapped 15g would give a more drivable/useabale car than what you have here. YOU WOULD NOT SEE AS HIGHER 'PEAK' BHP, most likely, but overall end up with something better in terms of where the power and torque come in IMO.
having been in the FFM i can vouch for how drivable it is, having used both 15g & currently a 19t on my own car i would even go as far to say it now spools just as (if not quicker) than the 15g did. & as you've pointed out with the bhp figure being so high up the scale doesn't it show the 19t hasn't even broke into a sweat, while the 15g will be starting to lose power due to the heat upto of being overworked? With a better boost controller & increasing the fuel more there has got to be more power to come out of it


'290bhp from a 15g lmao' Going back to this - I have seen car's producing this kind of power with a 15g. The 15g and 16t are highly underated and for some reason the 19t is seen as the holy grail of the turbo volvo world. Yes you would see a slightly higher top end performance from a 19t, it is bigger (but only a smidge), but not earth shatteringly different like most believe.
i've also seen the result of the 15g running over 300bhp, wasn't that at the same dyno day that high-mileage standard T-5's were running 225bhp@wheels. & even the owner of the highest bhp Volvo of the day even questioned how accurate the figure was?

[PaulZX]

only time will tell... I'm using less fuel, going faster, and feeling smoother, oh and the redline seems to have shifted almost 1,000rpm higher... anyone care to explain that one to me?

lmao @ SUPER MICK!!! his mrs would be howling at that one....

To be fair, when I pulled in there, he said I'd get better from a remap, and I've never said I'm getting better than a remap, what I've said is that you don't HAVE to have a remap, to get similar results...

Someone needs to take a chill pill.....

[S70T5Chris]

only time will tell... I'm using less fuel, going faster, and feeling smoother, oh and the redline seems to have shifted almost 1,000rpm higher... anyone care to explain that one to me?

lmao @ SUPER MICK!!! his mrs would be howling at that one....

To be fair, when I pulled in there, he said I'd get better from a remap, and I've never said I'm getting better than a remap, what I've said is that you don't HAVE to have a remap, to get similar results...

Someone needs to take a chill pill.....

Yeah - Pedro Fandoobywatsit!! :duck:

Fair do's. But I don't really understand why you're so against getting the car remapped tho? You've gone to all this effort and got some good parts fitted. Why not make the most of them? Or at least make better use of them!

I'm glad your happy with your car, thats all that matters at the end of the day. But I don't think many people will be following you down the non-remap route.

I haven't any bones to pick with you mate. It's your car, do what you want, I do, if people disagree thats up to them! It's just IMO the route you've taken is not a serious alternative to getting a custom remap.

On a serious note, not picking holes, just interested! - Do you know what the Afr's/Lambda was through the rev range? Just for your own piece of mind? I know 'Mick The Magnificent' (who is Mick? I have no idea, i'm sure he probably knows his stuff and is a great guy! Clearly he's Pedros Idol!) said it's ok, but if it were my car i'd want to know. I've been on the recieving end of melted pistons and it's not nice!

[S70T5Chris]

Why can't I do the multi-quote thingy? I am a simple, sorry.

badly read, or badly written who knows lol
Maybe badly written. But probably badly read. I refuse to belive that my writings are to blame :D

as we never even spoke to "Super Mick" about ECU's or remapping nor can i post on his behalf i have never given any of Mick's opinions on them. My comment about taking his word over yours was referring to the fuelling
You're getting confused aren't you? I haven't commented on the fueling, because it's being kept a secret from everyone.

is it me or is that a double negative, you "being surprised if it was bang on" isn't your opinion then?
Sort of i suppose if your being picky! :nut: I can't form an opinion on the fueling as the results are being closely guarded by BatMick and Robin. But I have a feeling that, most likely, they are far from optimum. Some would say thats an opinion, some would say a prediction.

having been in the FFM i can vouch for how drivable it is, having used both 15g & currently a 19t on my own car i would even go as far to say it now spools just as (if not quicker) than the 15g did. & as you've pointed out with the bhp figure being so high up the scale doesn't it show the 19t hasn't even broke into a sweat, while the 15g will be starting to lose power due to the heat upto of being overworked? With a better boost controller & increasing the fuel more there has got to be more power to come out of it
You've picked up on something there that I would like to (hang on a minute, don't faint) AGREE WITH YOU on! :D Everyone is under some illusion that a 19t is this huge turbo that takes ages to spool up. Not so, as you've pointed out. The 19t spools up plenty quick enough. But in the same breath it's not the ginormous improvement over a 16t that everyone is also lead to believe. It's a little bigger, and does give slightly better midrange and top end, but it's still a small turbo in the grand scheme of things.


i've also seen the result of the 15g running over 300bhp, wasn't that at the same dyno day that high-mileage standard T-5's were running 225bhp@wheels. & even the owner of the highest bhp Volvo of the day even questioned how accurate the figure was?
I'm not sure of the dyno day you're referring to. The car i'm aware of was at the Powerstation dyno day last year. I don't believe there were any standard cars running that day.

So, to summerize. I'm right, you're wrong. :talktohan

[p fandango]

Why can't I do the multi-quote thingy? I am a simple, sorry.
its exactly the same process as normal quoting, only you add the the quote brackets ( [ quote] [ / quote ] ) to each paragraph you wish to seperate


Maybe badly written. But probably badly read. I refuse to belive that my writings are to blame :D
again i guess thats just a matter of opinion, what might make sense to you as you wrote it might not be as clear to Joe Bloggs :mischievo lol


You're getting confused aren't you? I haven't commented on the fueling, because it's being kept a secret from everyone.
lol the fuelling hasn't been kept secret, as i've said in several posts we didn't get a fuel print out, nor did we see any graphs for it (not that it would make any sense to me tbh). We were told its ok & no reason to doubt it


Sort of i suppose if your being picky! :nut: I can't form an opinion on the fueling as the results are being closely guarded by BatMick and Robin. But I have a feeling that, most likely, they are far from optimum. Some would say thats an opinion, some would say a prediction.
if your "prediction" was based on any sort of fact or information this thread would probably be half the size lol. You seem to be doubting a reputable engine builder, who had the car in question on the dyno, hooked upto the most complex machine i have ever seen on a dyno with no reason why?


You've picked up on something there that I would like to (hang on a minute, don't faint) AGREE WITH YOU on! :D Everyone is under some illusion that a 19t is this huge turbo that takes ages to spool up. Not so, as you've pointed out. The 19t spools up plenty quick enough. But in the same breath it's not the ginormous improvement over a 16t that everyone is also lead to believe. It's a little bigger, and does give slightly better midrange and top end, but it's still a small turbo in the grand scheme of things.
could we be getting somewhere, NAH lol. Let me throw another span in the works, throwing the forum favorite question into the mix why did Volvo think it needed to use the 19T on a car which they only intended to produce 265bhp (V70R AWD limited edition) if it could of easily done it with a 16T & a remap


I'm not sure of the dyno day you're referring to. The car i'm aware of was at the Powerstation dyno day last year. I don't believe there were any standard cars running that day.
sounds like a different one to the example i know. IF its right tho credit to him, i'm guessing there were plenty of other mods to go with it


So, to summerize. I'm right, you're wrong. :talktohan
if you say so :wink:, tbh i'm getting a bit bored now lol

[yellowt5r]

As i need a new turbo for my c70 me7, i want to up grade....
Which one is the best to buy ( not for silly money). and ware from?
Dose any one have any ideas?



oh dose any one no if my car will run without the cat? as i want to get rid of it when the stainless goes on next weekend,will it go in to limp mode or throw up lights on the dash? or is it best to put on a sport cat?

fandango your missing the thread completly

the guy dont have loads of cash to spend (so there goes the well OVER RATED 19T)

angled 16T WILL give you a very good performance as tim has already stated with a good map at a resonable cost far LESS than the 19t

there 2 pages of crap when thats all what was needed

[p fandango]

]fandango your missing the thread completly
i do agree the thread has gone a bit off topic, but i do hope the OP has got enough information to help him out


the guy dont have loads of cash to spend
FFM brought is 19T for not much more than i would expect to pay for a good 16T, i only paid £500 delivered for a brand-new genuine Volvo 19T which i think is quite reasonable


(so there goes the well OVER RATED 19T)
perhaps you missed this from Chris

The 19t spools up plenty quick enough. But in the same breath it's not the ginormous improvement over a 16t that everyone is also lead to believe. It's a little bigger, and does give slightly better midrange and top end, but it's still a small turbo in the grand scheme of things.
to me that sounds like Chris is saying the 19T is better than a 16T, i'm not sure how anyone can measure how much better a turbo is as it depends on what you want from your car. But any improvement is a good improvement in my eyes :wink:


there 2 pages of crap when thats all what was needed
as i said this post has probably gone on a bit, but i disagree with you that other people shouldn't be allowed to post there opinions up just because you think the 16T is better choice

[S70T5Chris]

its exactly the same process as normal quoting, only you add the the quote brackets ( [ quote] [ / quote ] ) to each paragraph you wish to seperate
Woohoo I'm a genious.


again i guess thats just a matter of opinion, what might make sense to you as you wrote it might not be as clear to Joe Bloggs :mischievo lol
Well clearly thats not my fault!



lol the fuelling hasn't been kept secret, as i've said in several posts we didn't get a fuel print out, nor did we see any graphs for it (not that it would make any sense to me tbh). We were told its ok & no reason to doubt it
I know it's not a secret, i'm jesting. If you want to live in blissful ignorance thats up to you!



if your "prediction" was based on any sort of fact or information this thread would probably be half the size lol. You seem to be doubting a reputable engine builder, who had the car in question on the dyno, hooked upto the most complex machine i have ever seen on a dyno with no reason why?
Its just my prediction thats all. Most of what i've said is based on fact. I can see the dyno plot, and interprit it, and therefore can make comments based on that!



could we be getting somewhere, NAH lol. Let me throw another span in the works, throwing the forum favorite question into the mix why did Volvo think it needed to use the 19T on a car which they only intended to produce 265bhp (V70R AWD limited edition) if it could of easily done it with a 16T & a remap
Good question. But are you saying that a 16t can't easily produce 265bhp? Why did volvo not use the 19t on the S60 T5 then? I can't answer that question really, maybe Mick knows?


sounds like a different one to the example i know. IF its right tho credit to him, i'm guessing there were plenty of other mods to go with it
A few yes, but not massively more than FFM's mods.


if you say so :wink:, tbh i'm getting a bit bored now lol

Does that mean I win?!

[yellowt5r]

i do agree the thread has gone a bit off topic, but i do hope the OP has got enough information to help him out

after all these posts i bet more confused


FFM brought is 19T for not much more than i would expect to pay for a good 16T, i only paid £500 delivered for a brand-new genuine Volvo 19T which i think is quite reasonable

reasonable if your will to spend £350 more for not much more performance (like to see proof if its soooo much better)


perhaps you missed this from Chris

to me that sounds like Chris is saying the 19T is better than a 16T, i'm not sure how anyone can measure how much better a turbo is as it depends on what you want from your car. But any improvement is a good improvement in my eyes :wink:

yes your right only cost would come into it

as i said this post has probably gone on a bit, but i disagree with you that other people shouldn't be allowed to post there opinions up just because you think the 16T is better choice

its cheaper choice/as good in performance wise thats the point

[S70T5Chris]

to me that sounds like Chris is saying the 19T is better than a 16T, i'm not sure how anyone can measure how much better a turbo is as it depends on what you want from your car. But any improvement is a good improvement in my eyes :wink:


Ok. If you presented me with 2 turbos and I had to pick one, a 19t and a 16t, I didn't have to pay for them, just pick one. I'd have the 19t. As i've agreed, it has mildly better mid range and top end than a 16t. But by how much? Not a feckin bucket load by any stretch of the imagination. If I had to buy a decent second hand turbo and had to choose between a £450 19t and a £100 16t, I'd have the 16t all day long. The minor improvement you get from a 19t is not worth the extra money.

A 19t is not the big laggy turbo that people think (good thing, by the way), and in the same breathe it's not the big huge power producing turbo that people think either.

God this is turning into another 16t v 19t debate.

But... what you've done with FFM's car, I don't believe to be that good a result. I rekon you'd have ended up with a better drive, by just getting one of McCabletie's knocked off jobbies on the standard 15g.

[yellowt5r]

thats the point chris for the money its not worth it

whos McCableties sound good i what one of them.lol

[S70T5Chris]

its cheaper choice/as good in performance wise thats the point

You're right.

On paper the 19t performs better, and maybe it does a smidge. But hardly noticable in the real world.

To compare mine and Warrens (volvolised/KVO) car. Basically the same spec, but he has a 19t. In terms of HP/Torque - very similar. On the road/track, theres nothing in it.

Is the 19t worth the extra money - NO!

[S70T5Chris]

thats the point chris for the money its not worth it

whos McCableties sound good i what one of them.lol

Christ almighty, you don't want, believe me!

[p fandango]

Woohoo I'm a genious.
well done lol


I know it's not a secret, i'm jesting. If you want to live in blissful ignorance thats up to you!
i'm lost, ignorance of what?


Its just my prediction thats all. Most of what i've said is based on fact. I can see the dyno plot, and interprit it, and therefore can make comments based on that!
can you post some of these facts up then please, so far all i've seen from you is "i don't think the fuelling can be right"


Good question. But are you saying that a 16t can't easily produce 265bhp?
where have i said anything about what the 16T can or can't do, what i did say is Volvo choose the 19T for a reason, & considering its so "over-rated" i would be just as interested to know why


Why did volvo not use the 19t on the S60 T5 then? I can't answer that question really, maybe Mick knows?
don't the T-5's use KKK series turbos like the R's? I doubt i'll be seeing Mick again, but i'll make a note of the question for you & see if he can shed any light on it


A few yes, but not massively more than FFM's mods.
if you actually look FFM hasn't got that many mods (no offence Paul), he's still running a standard CAT, standard backbox & airbox


Does that mean I win?!
if the aim was to see who can put the other to sleep first then yes you win, congratulations you've won a bananna lol
http://www.teripets.com/images/items/food/bananna.gif

[p fandango]

Ok. If you presented me with 2 turbos and I had to pick one, a 19t and a 16t, I didn't have to pay for them, just pick one. I'd have the 19t. As i've agreed, it has mildly better mid range and top end than a 16t. But by how much? Not a feckin bucket load by any stretch of the imagination. If I had to buy a decent second hand turbo and had to choose between a £450 19t and a £100 16t, I'd have the 16t all day long. The minor improvement you get from a 19t is not worth the extra money.
now i feel we're getting somewhere, & what if the 19T wasn't at the over-exaggerated price that you've put on it. As i said i only paid £500 for a brand-new 19T & i do know FFM didn't pay anywhere near £450 for his second-hand one?

[t5 pete]

:ready2go::ready2go::ready2go::ready2go::ready2go: :ready2go::ready2go:
Pop corn at the ready what a night of entertainment

[p fandango]

:ready2go::ready2go::ready2go::ready2go::ready2go: :ready2go::ready2go:
Pop corn at the ready what a night of entertainment
lol. I don't know about popcorn, think Redbull would be a better choice (hope the argument doesn't start about which energy drink is better now lol)

i do enjoy a good banter & hope everyone is taking it as lighthearted as i am & intending it to be :saythat:

[S70T5Chris]

i'm lost, ignorance of what?
You have no idea what the fueling is doing? All you now is that some geezer called Mick said it's ok! If thats good enough for you...



can you post some of these facts up then please, so far all i've seen from you is "i don't think the fuelling can be right"
If you'd like to go back through some of my previous psost on this thread you will see where I have expertly analysed the dyno graph, giving my opinion on where and when torque and power levels come into play.



where have i said anything about what the 16T can or can't do, what i did say is Volvo choose the 19T for a reason, & considering its so "over-rated" i would be just as interested to know why
It's what you implyed when making your commenst about using the 19t on the 265bhp V70R.



don't the T-5's use KKK series turbos like the R's? I doubt i'll be seeing Mick again, but i'll make a note of the question for you & see if he can shed any light on it
Only after 2005 did the S60 T5 use a KKK turbo. Up until then they still used a 16t. If there's anything else I can help you with let me know...



if you actually look FFM hasn't got that many mods (no offence Paul), he's still running a standard CAT, standard backbox & airbox
V70R manifold, 19t, 960 throttle body?



if the aim was to see who can put the other to sleep first then yes you win, congratulations you've won a bananna lol
http://www.teripets.com/images/items/food/bananna.gif

mmmmm I like bananas.

ps, im getting good at the multquote thing aint I.

[t5 pete]

lol. I don't know about popcorn, think Redbull would be a better choice (hope the argument doesn't start about which energy drink is better now lol)


No no red bull isnt the best my drinking engineer super pat says we should be going down the asdas own make route.
If i had the two of them in front of me and didnt have to pay for them i would always go asda's own make and im sure super pat knows whats hes on about

[S70T5Chris]

now i feel we're getting somewhere, & what if the 19T wasn't at the over-exaggerated price that you've put on it. As i said i only paid £500 for a brand-new 19T & i do know FFM didn't pay anywhere near £450 for his second-hand one?

Fecking hell - you're new one for £500 was a one off, you were lucky to get it at that price. You were in the right place at the right time so to speak!

Did he pay £100 for it? Thats how much I paid for my low mileage 16t.

Don't forget the custom remap you'll need for a 19t...

[t5 pete]

Theres the new 19t's on ebay for £500 delivered

[S70T5Chris]

i do enjoy a good banter & hope everyone is taking it as lighthearted as i am & intending it to be :saythat:

:sinner:

We don't all have to agree on everything.

But i'm right...

[S70T5Chris]

Theres the new 19t's on ebay for £500 delivered

yeah but would you risk buying one of them from Japan? would there be import duty on that? probably.

[p fandango]

You have no idea what the fueling is doing? All you now is that some geezer called Mick said it's ok! If thats good enough for you...
that'll be Mick who owns this place http://www.hitechmotorsport.co.uk/index.htm, so yes if he's happy then thats good enough for me


If you'd like to go back through some of my previous psost on this thread you will see where I have expertly analysed the dyno graph, giving my opinion on where and when torque and power levels come into play.
i did actually say they were gentle during the lower rpm's because of the clutch slipping, i hope that doesn't affect your "expert" opinion on it too muchh lol


Only after 2005 did the S60 T5 use a KKK turbo. Up until then they still used a 16t. If there's anything else I can help you with let me know...
i'm an 850 man so not really cared about anything after them tbh so thanks for your info, can you knowledge go as far as to help with a suggestion as to why Volvo preferred the 19T tho?


V70R manifold, 19t, 960 throttle body?
exactly, not a huge list is it (again no offence Paul)


mmmmm I like bananas.
glad i could help


ps, im getting good at the multquote thing aint I.
i'm impressed, where will your talents end :wink:

[p fandango]

Fecking hell - you're new one for £500 was a one off, you were lucky to get it at that price.
As t5-pete has posted they are readily available at that price, i can't see any reason why the country of origin should be of any concern (you do know your car was imported from Sweden don't you? lol)


Did he pay £100 for it? Thats how much I paid for my low mileage 16t.
no it was more than £100, perhaps "You were in the right place at the right time so to speak!" lol


Don't forget the custom remap you'll need for a 19t...
WRONG lol

[t5 pete]

yeah but would you risk buying one of them from Japan? would there be import duty on that? probably.

To be truthfull if i had the money i would and cannot see why they should be any difference from anywhere else also the japs enginering is pretty good.
As to import duty i havent got a clue but how much do they sell for over here.
Also if i were to do a turbo upgrade i would also preffer to fit a new turbo as to one that has covered a good few thousand miles.

[S70T5Chris]

I'm not really sure how this detriated into a 16t v 19t agument. I'm not saying the 19t is crap. But IMO it's not all it's hyped up to be, certainly not without an appropriate remap.

The only reason I got involved in this thread was because FFM made a statement saying that you could fit a 19t, and without a remap get as good results or better than with a remap. After looking at the graph of his car. I disagree.

[S70T5Chris]

To be truthfull if i had the money i would and cannot see why they should be any difference from anywhere else also the japs enginering is pretty good.
As to import duty i havent got a clue but how much do they sell for over here.
Also if i were to do a turbo upgrade i would also preffer to fit a new turbo as to one that has covered a good few thousand miles.

My point being that should you have any problems, it would be a huge pain in the arse. Not that Japan is dodgy! There are some pretty cheapo built turbos out there, so you do need to be slightly careful.

A new 19t from the dealer is around £650 on an exchange basis.

[p fandango]

yeah but would you risk buying one of them from Japan? would there be import duty on that? probably.
i've only brought from America & yes had to pay duty, my bro has brought many things from Japan & they wrap/declare them as gifts to get around paying duty on it

[Enigma666]

Do I or don't I get involved.....sadly I have opted yes.

Why remap over FPR and MBC...well....because it is safer...better? who knows....safer....I would say so, raising the fuel pressure at the rail is good for geting more fuel through the injectors, but they have to be large enough to accept that much fuel otherwise the duty cycle goes all over the place....aim for 80% DC and you should be laughing :)

If you are going the MBC FPR route then it is safer to get an AFR guage too and check out those figures, also an EGT guage is lovely when going to a bigger turbo.

In short....I am going Garrett so I will beat a 19T and 16T :P

[S70T5Chris]

In short....I am going Garrett so I will beat a 19T and 16T :P

Bitch!

[Enigma666]

Bitch!

Yes, yes I am :P

[volvolised]

This is from the website of the guys that sell the 19T as per petes linky (first page)　 DESCRIPTION
．Brand new VOLVO 850 / S70 / T5 TD04HL-19T-6 Turbocharger
．It can upgrade and bolt on 850 / S70 with 13G and 16T turbo directly.
　 　 ．JAW upgrades original 16T (49189-01450) to 19T turbo to make it more Power.

SPECIFICATIONS :
MHI Part Number on Plate: 49189-01450
Model: TD04HL-19T-6

Cooling: Water-cooled
Applicable to 2L or 2.3L Engine

This 19T turbo helps you gain 10~15 more HP than original 16T turbo. If your turbo is 850 T5 with 15G turbo, that means it has the same turbine flange to exhaust manifold but different flange to downpipe and it needs to be modified.

ooooh !! 10 bhp lol, believe me though, two almost identicaly modded cars apart from one 16T, one 19T and yes thats it about 10bhp.... cars (mine an chris's)... I understand the orginal posters question, reason i put 16t instead of 19t or kkk (better than the 19T, opens another can of worms) was the difference in money would bring on better accompanying mods which would make the car so much better and YES one major mod in my OPINION would be a remap.....I think its great people try things but who is going to be the pioneer that loses everything for the sake of knowledge....will it work properly wont it.....chris was a very bad example of the VT hybrid F**K up...he moved on and found a better path....but it cost him...

[jer,c70]

thanx every one great advise all round
im gona buy a nice new t19 when i get paid and the exhust is coming in on thursday,
the map will have to wate till i get paid again after that.
oh and as far as stoping is concerned i have put on ebc drilled and groved discs all round with a good set of padds and changed the fluid for 5.1 and stops on a 2p peace.
a sett of coil overs and a good set of braces are on the list but i have to wate till ive got a bit more chedder ;-)
thanx everyone
And a big thanx to t5pete & wobbley dave for the good link and the tec details !!!!

and big thanx to t5pete

[S70T5Chris]

thanx every one great advise all round
im gona buy a nice new t19 when i get paid and the exhust is coming in on thursday,
the map will have to wate till i get paid again after that.
oh and as far as stoping is concerned i have put on ebc drilled and groved discs all round with a good set of padds and changed the fluid for 5.1 and stops on a 2p peace.
a sett of coil overs and a good set of braces are on the list but i have to wate till ive got a bit more chedder ;-)
thanx everyone
And a big thanx to t5pete & wobbley dave for the good link and the tec details !!!!

and big thanx to t5pete


Good luck with what ever route you take. But I think you'll find on an ME7 car
you can't just bolt a different turbo on and off you go. You will need a remap to suit.

[Wombatbomb]

good luck with what ever route you take. But i think you'll find on an me7 car
you can't just bolt a different turbo on and off you go. You will need a remap to suit.

+1.

[jer,c70]

ummm ok was gona buy a turbo today but now i dont no what to do? if i get a t19 will she still run? or will it be the same as the t16 till i get a remap?
the exhust is done ....... What a difernece! i have gone from 5 psi to 12 at full throttle she fells like a different car
But at 4500 rpm in 5th gear she drops all her boost for a second or two and it wont let me go any quicker..... i guess this is the ecu cutting in because it should only boost to 8 ish psi on a standered map but i could be wrong (am i ?)
so anyway can i put a t19 on my c70 gt t5 (2.5 me7) without having to remap strate away, or mod at all????????????????????

[Enigma666]

Quick answer....NO.....it wont per say go bang, but a 19T will need larger injectors for a start and therefore a remap....welcome to the expensive world of upgrading :(

[Wobbly Dave]

I ran an unmapped 19T on my silver C70 for a little while before tuning. Whilst you don't see the power I very much doubt you will have any issues. I run the original blue injectors on mine and have no issues with the AFR (and yes I did get them cleaned and a couple replaced)

[Enigma666]

Pre ME7 Wobbly or ME7?

[jer,c70]

if i buy a ppc from bsr first can i map it myself to suit the mods as and when they go on? like the 4.5 inch down pipe an sports cat she now has, then the turbo and injecters etc when i can affored them?

[Wobbly Dave]

Pre ME7 Wobbly or ME7?
Mine is ME7

[Enigma666]

I'm shocked the ME7 didn't throw a fit with larger injectors and 19T.....guess that is a testament to the ability of the ECU :)

Jer....the ppc only allows you to flash pre-written code onto the ECU, this would require custom maps to be written so basically you are unlikely to be able to unless you pay BSR to write a custom map for you each time.

[Wobbly Dave]

The ME7 comes with those injectors. I never uprated them. It was not deemed necessary.

[benep]

All depends what your after and what sort of running costs are acceptable to you!
When changing things like downpipes and turbos etc it never hurts to upgrade ecu or remap, even if to get the car fuelling right and stopping it deting its self to destruction lol

[Wobbly Dave]

I lost the powergrahs in the Great VPCUK crash of 2008 - (and I had over 10,000 posts)

So here is what happened to my C70 in Jan 2008 (on the dyno). This is a custom remapped 19T with feritta race D/P and a 3" miltec.

Max boost is about 1.2 bar. Makes a solid 300 at the crank.

This is just for example - because I have had more work done since, including new/recon injectors, MAF and further adjustments to the remap.

[Babybadger]

As i need a new turbo for my c70 me7, i want to up grade....
Which one is the best to buy ( not for silly money). and ware from?
Dose any one have any ideas?



oh dose any one no if my car will run without the cat? as i want to get rid of it when the stainless goes on next weekend,will it go in to limp mode or throw up lights on the dash? or is it best to put on a sport cat?

Is yours auto or manual? Auto I would stick with smaller turbo for maximum torque low down , as there will be too much lag and the autobox will loose the topend power. Manual , now I would go all the way.... 19T.....at least it will be useable power.....