Which Remap?

[Flingel]

I'm thinking of getting my ECU remapped.
Any recommendations?
RICA, BSR?

It's a 2.0t 2002 Cab.

Anyone had one remapped?
Any benefits MPG wise?

Cheers,
Tel

[Wobbly Dave]

where are you in the world?

[wegal]

Im running MTE done through the softloader system, I couldnt be happier. Its a very good remap.

[Flingel]

where are you in the world?

Sorry, thought it was in my profile.

West Yokshire.

Cheers,
Tel.

[Wobbly Dave]

My personal pref is for the remaps at HLM - but there are good alternatives. Buying a T5 is one LOL. But seriously though - you can use MTE or BSR via the PPC method - which means it is easier to install - because you do it yourself.

Never been convinced by superchips and I don't much like RICA (but that's a personal issue).

[S70T5Chris]

My personal pref is for the remaps at HLM - but there are good alternatives. Buying a T5 is one LOL. But seriously though - you can use MTE or BSR via the PPC method - which means it is easier to install - because you do it yourself.

Never been convinced by superchips and I don't much like RICA (but that's a personal issue).

How come you don't like RICA anymore?

[Wobbly Dave]

Their products are OK but I changed my opinion having seen how the parent company operates. Even for the Dutch they are not much cop and I should know - I know enough of them.

[Azza]

You can do RICA through PPC too, unless that's been stopped now ?

I'm very happy with mine, but know Wobbly has his own reasons, but for me, the standard remap has turned my car into a beast!

[Wobbly Dave]

I didnt say the remap is rubbish - just I wasnt keen on the company

[lance]

Ive only had autologic and rica, and I prefer the autologic

[cornclose]

Horses for courses perhaps. After much reading and listening to viewpoints, I've gone with the RICA PPC for mine...

[Engineer]

Well I can’t believe I’ve just read those 2 posts, two of the most ardent RICA supporters that I’ve ever met have now become turn coats to another brand of map :wtf:
The (Auto) logic of this world will never cease to amaze me ;)

[Flingel]

Mmm.....
Still confused.....
I take it theres not much between them all just badging and one upmanship?
So what benefits and pitfalls are there in remapping?
Is the difference before and after that noticeable?
Is MPG really improved?
Leaning towards the RICA at the moment after doing a bit of reading.
Mainly because theres an agent a few miles down the road, how easy is the PPC to do? Any chance buggering it up?
I take it theres' no difference between the PPC and agent apart from you get to keep the "Back up".

Cheers,
Tel.

[marky 76]

funny how that works isnt it !!!

[S70T5Chris]

Well I can’t believe I’ve just read those 2 posts, two of the most ardent RICA supporters that I’ve ever met have now become turn coats to another brand of map :wtf:
The (Auto) logic of this world will never cease to amaze me ;)

Ah there you go you see... It's alright, I forgive you, you are getting on in years now, so it's easy to get confused!!! :saythat:

I've told you before, you musn't get 'RICA Supporters' mixed up with 'Hamish McCabletie Supporters' !!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Having said that, I do agree with Dangerous Dave, RICA do suck a*s.

[RT MECHANICS]

RICA do suck a*s.

Hi Chris

Are you saying the standard off the shelf maps are no good ?

Russ

[RT MECHANICS]

You can do RICA through PPC too, unless that's been stopped now ?

I'm very happy with mine, but know Wobbly has his own reasons, but for me, the standard remap has turned my car into a beast!

Hi Azza

Many thanks for your kind words the PPC sales continue very well from BSR and Rica :)

Russ

[S70T5Chris]

Hi Chris

Are you saying the standard off the shelf maps are no good ?

Russ

Hi Russ

That's not what I'm saying. The standard remaps obviously work ok. I had one for 3 years without any problems. Having said that, even the standard 'off the shelf' maps do seem to run leaner (from the dyno plots i've seen) than what I would be happy with on my own car. But then maybe i'm just paranoid after my previous experience. If you want my opinion, there are better remaps out there than RICA.

Also, I was more referring to RICA, more as a company, than as the products they sell. I have heard of several people having difficulties with them.

Sorry mate, i'm not trying to go RICA bashing. The 'RICA sucks a*s' comment was a semi-joke, as was the rest of my last post!

I know you've sold a lot of the RICA PPC's and had great feedback from them. So if the customers are happy, then it's got to be good enough. I'm just not a fan after my previous 'custom' RICA remap!

We must catch up soon.

Chris

[BruceT]

I once read this, think it was on Volvospeed.

RICA - Tuned for dyno figures
MTE/TME - Tuned for drivability

[Loadsamiles]

Hi Chris

Are you saying the standard off the shelf maps are no good ?

Russ

Care to show us an AFR plot of a pre-PPC RICA phase 2 car?????

I've seen many a dyno operator wince at those re-maps.

[Justin]

Here we go again..........Same usernames, same agenda. Can we take one on the chin, take a deep breath, let our arms dangle and raise noses, then slowly walk away from this now please, Its all well documented, has been discussed more than Wilko's winning drop goal and we are are all so bored of it :)

[S70T5Chris]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6h4sDw8OmO4/SLxlNvVTrsI/AAAAAAAAATA/HVxWYVo0O58/s400/Qiki+-+No+Fun+Allowed.JPG

[Mrsmopp]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6h4sDw8OmO4/SLxlNvVTrsI/AAAAAAAAATA/HVxWYVo0O58/s400/Qiki+-+No+Fun+Allowed.JPG

:biggrin: You really should get out more if this is your interpretation of fun :haha:

[S70T5Chris]

:biggrin: You really should get out more if this is your interpretation of fun :haha:

http://jjsblogspot.com/gallery/d/29-2/1280-tongue-out-smiley.jpg

[mikouk]

Care to show us an AFR plot of a pre-PPC RICA phase 2 car?????

I've seen many a dyno operator wince at those re-maps.

I don't want to cause trouble but what do you mean by this? I'm afraid I am oblivious to the previous discussions about this as I am still quite new. Are you saying that the PPC RICA upgrade is no good and doesn't increase the power? Although I'm sure it does as my car is like a different car now. Sorry if I'm opening up a massive can of worms but I've spent a lot of money on my RICA upgrade and I want to make sure its money well spent. It would be good to hear all sides sensibly if poss. PM me if you don't want to cause a big argument.

[Justin]

Although I'm sure it does as my car is like a different car now.

You have answered your own question.

Chris, What she said^^^^

[mikouk]

You have answered your own question.

Point taken. I just wish people would back up their claims. Especially for people like me who do not have a degree in engineering and don't understand the hidden meanings etc.

[Mrsmopp]

Point taken. I just wish people would back up their claims. Especially for people like me who do not have a degree in engineering and don't understand the hidden meanings etc.

Essentially the story goes something like this.......

Original RICA remaps off the shelf (not PPC) are thought to be a fairly decent jobbie although there have been some concerns over cars with the remap running lean - to date I dont think we have anyone with a standard map who has had major (ie car killing) issues (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)

Rica "custom" maps done by a company called VolvoTuning have had mixed results, some very very expensive results (ie ChrisS70T5) and the general concensus seems to be if you need a custom map then use another brand (I think)

So far I dont think (and again I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong) there have been any issues with the PPC RICA.

In a nut shell

[Dangerous Dave]

Well said MrsMopp. Nice and to the point.

[S70T5Chris]

Essentially the story goes something like this.......

Original RICA remaps off the shelf (not PPC) are thought to be a fairly decent jobbie although there have been some concerns over cars with the remap running lean - to date I dont think we have anyone with a standard map who has had major (ie car killing) issues (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)

Rica "custom" maps done by a company called VolvoTuning have had mixed results, some very very expensive results (ie ChrisS70T5) and the general concensus seems to be if you need a custom map then use another brand (I think)

So far I dont think (and again I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong) there have been any issues with the PPC RICA.

In a nut shell

Bang on, good job summing it up. We'll save this post for the next Remap thread !!

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/3194/thumbsupag3.jpg

[Saaamon]

These threads always provide some good entertainment lol.

[Azza]

OK, so not wanting to stir this up any more, but just so i understand a bit better... Surely if you're having a "custom" map, which is going way beyond what the standard re-map achieves, then surely it's down to how that re-map is applied and not the re-map itself ?

Being from a software background, i could liken it to writing code for doing a job, the code itself may be written very well, it's just how it's applied to different situations that makes the difference, if that makes any sense ?

[Mrsmopp]

Rica "custom" maps done by a company called VolvoTuning have had mixed results, some very very expensive results (ie ChrisS70T5) and the general concensus seems to be if you need a custom map then use another brand (I think)




OK, so not wanting to stir this up any more, but just so i understand a bit better... Surely if you're having a "custom" map, which is going way beyond what the standard re-map achieves, then surely it's down to how that re-map is applied and not the re-map itself ?

Being from a software background, i could liken it to writing code for doing a job, the code itself may be written very well, it's just how it's applied to different situations that makes the difference, if that makes any sense ?

See above :)

[cornclose]

See above :)

I think that means 'yes'.

From the RICA website :-

Is the RICA performance software inside the PPC the same as what I would get if I had the ECU upgrade installed at a RICA agent without a PPC?


Yes. Whether you have the RICA PPC, or whether you go to a RICA agent to have the ECU upgrade installed via OBD2 without a PPC, the RICA performance software installed in your car is exactly the same.

[cornclose]

Rica "custom" maps done by a company called VolvoTuning have had mixed results, some very very expensive results (ie ChrisS70T5) and the general concensus seems to be if you need a custom map then use another brand (I think)

Surely this can't be true then. If a custom remap, by very definition, turns out to be an expensive mistake then you can't blame RICA for it any more than you could blame MTE or BSR etc if the custom map happened to be using one of their standard maps as a base.

If I went on to a customer's system and reprogrammed it and changed the way it worked, and ultimately something broke, who would get the blame ? Me, or Microsoft (as I happened to be using their Visual Studio package at the time) ?

[Mrsmopp]

As far as I am aware there are no RICA agents who do "custom" maps anymore, hence using a different brand?

RICA PPC is not a custom map its an off the shelf job that no one has had any issues with as far as I am aware.

I tell you, you try and make it simple and folks have to make it more complicated :cussing:

[cornclose]

As far as I am aware there are no RICA agents who do "custom" maps anymore, hence using a different brand?

Do you mean there are no agents who do custom remaps based on a RICA base map ? Which is not the same as what you've just stated...

I'm not trying to complicate things, but I'm trying to get to the facts which seem to have been missing here for some time, because whenever it gets mentioned it seems you either have to have a masters in reading between the lines, or have been party to the original (now lost since the crash) discussions many moons ago.

I and many others have neither, so when this kind of subject comes up, we may have a particular interest in it.

[mikouk]

i'm not trying to complicate things, but i'm trying to get to the facts which seem to have been missing here for some time, because whenever it gets mentioned it seems you either have to have a masters in reading between the lines, or have been party to the original (now lost since the crash) discussions many moons ago.

I and many others have neither, so when this kind of subject comes up, we may have a particular interest in it.

exactly!

[Azza]

So it sounds like :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

Custom re-maps, don't use RICA, as RICA themselves don't advocate manipulation of their software above the standard re-map.

[Mrsmopp]

Do you mean there are no agents who do custom remaps based on a RICA base map ? Which is not the same as what you've just stated...

.

Pardon??????

It really isn't complicated and there are no "facts" as such just different people with different experiences (some good some a million miles from good) the general concensus that has been formed over the years is as follows (I think)

If you want a standard off the shelf map than there isn't an awful lot in it between the many companies that offer base maps.

If you have lots of modification and need a custom map then thats a whole other ball game and you should seek advice from people who have had direct experiences.

[cornclose]

So it sounds like :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

Custom re-maps, don't use RICA, as RICA themselves don't advocate manipulation of their software above the standard re-map.

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

[Mrsmopp]

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

Spot on ;) :D

[Justin]

To add some clarity to the rica side of things, here is what i know to be factual.

Rica PPc is not and off the shelf map, or any other specific map. Rica PPC is simply the tool for programming the car. It can program the car with any rica software including specific maps but is pre programmed with an off the shelf map unless otherwise requested.

In terms of technical process, custom mapping is no different to developing off the shelf maps, It involves optimizing the map for the relevant components on the car. An off the shelf map is basically a custom template developed for a standard car with standard factory spec components that has been designed with certain tolerances so that it works on all cars without the need for alteration, these are developed and tested by Rica.

Stage 2 and 3 maps are also custom templates designed for popular upgrades such as 19T turbo, 3" downpipes etc. These are designed the same as off the shelf maps without the need for any significant alterations, although they often need tweaking to optimise (Mine did) Again they are developed and tested at Rica.

Full custom maps would only be used if the cars standard form is significantly changed, IE the engine or components are a unique setup with say a garett turbo, FMIC, larger injectors and custom manifold. This is where the problems are most likely to occur as the car in most cases isnt actually at Rica. This means the end results will only be as good as the information supplied to rica by the customer or tuning shop working on the car. Its also a very time consuming process.

HTH :)

[wegal]

This debate is pretty academic..... If you buy a standard remap from any of the well known brands it will work. Just like volvo have a map for each car that is designed to operate over a large rangeof peramiters so the tuning companies offer the same thing. They are just optimising some aspects ( boost, fueling, timing and in some cases throttle response) to operate at levels designed to release some extra horses. Even stage 2 and 3 maps are pretty much the same just with a few tweaks to get the benefit from the additional bolted on toys ( down pipes etc etc)

A custom map is a very different beast and are in my opinion dangerous territory, it doesnt take much to go wrong with the fueling or boost and you have a dead engine and an expensive repair. Engine maps contain many vairables and just getting one wrong can make the car run very badly or kill it.

All that said you buy a standard ( I use the word standard to Include MTE even though MTE do require you to send them a indentity file from your car to get the best tune, although they also offer an off the shelf version) reamp and you are increasing the stess on your engine and drive train, even though all the tuning sites claim it wont affect the car, well it will. If you dont use the extra power then it will have no effect, if you do then it stands to reason that more boost and more fuel equals more power which equals more component stress. If you reamp a car with 150,000 miles to stage 3 dont be to suprised when something breaks. Volvos standard map isnt there to spoil your fun its used because it ensures longevity of the car.

If you are going for a "standard remap" then find someone who has EXACTLY the same car as you and ask their opinion, its really not much use someone with a 15 year old 850 running one of the Rica maps telling you that Rica is the best as the map for your 2 year old car will be totally different and so will the driving experience.

There is the long and seemingly never ending debate about the Volvotuning issue. That should really be put to bed now as its no longer relevent to what is happening in the tuning world today.

Remaps are opinion based, the comments you get about which one is best is totally based in people expectations and perceptions. Not based in fact. As far as I am aware no one has taken a map from all the main tuning companys and put them on the same car, then done a true comparison - based on facts.

What happened to chris's car happened and it is very unfortunate indeed, but the instant you start playing with true custom maps then you are taking very big risks that applies to both the owner and the tuner.

If you are bolting on some really different toys to your car and then remapping the ecu to use those toys you have to accept that you have just stepped into unknown territory and as such anything could happen if you are going this route have written agreement with the tuner as to who is responsible for what if it goes wrong.

If you are unsure, then ask the tuner to give you the name and address of someone whos car they have tuned that is the same as yours and ask the user their view. Any good tuner would not be afraid to give you this information, also make sure that they have been running the map for a while as problems can develop later that might not be evident at first.

So in short........ do your home work, talk to people who have the SAME car as you. Talk to ALL the tuners and if possible get a reference from them. You are moddifying the second most expensive thing you will ever buy, so be a smart buyer and understand all the risks.

[Loadsamiles]

I don't want to cause trouble but what do you mean by this? I'm afraid I am oblivious to the previous discussions about this as I am still quite new. Are you saying that the PPC RICA upgrade is no good and doesn't increase the power? Although I'm sure it does as my car is like a different car now. Sorry if I'm opening up a massive can of worms but I've spent a lot of money on my RICA upgrade and I want to make sure its money well spent. It would be good to hear all sides sensibly if poss. PM me if you don't want to cause a big argument.

Read my post again...

I cannot vouch for anything on the PPC maps, but I have been lead to believe that they are different to the old Rica 310 for the ME7.

I was asking particularly about the AFR figures for the pre (meaning before) PPC RICA maps.

For I know them to be running the combustion VERY hot (lean)

The difference between a good re-map and a half baked re-map is the safety margins built into the tuning.
You can easily get 2 maps to produce the same power, and both maps run fine for years, but suddenly put both in a demanding situation and one will cope fine, whilst the other falls over.

[S70T5Chris]

I’d like to respond the Wegal’s comments please. All in the name of a good debate, and helping people in the future.

This debate is pretty academic.....

Not so IMHO!

If you buy a standard remap from any of the well known brands it will work. Just like volvo have a map for each car that is designed to operate over a large rangeof peramiters so the tuning companies offer the same thing. They are just optimising some aspects ( boost, fueling, timing and in some cases throttle response) to operate at levels designed to release some extra horses. Even stage 2 and 3 maps are pretty much the same just with a few tweaks to get the benefit from the additional bolted on toys ( down pipes etc etc)

Totally agree! The standard remaps available from all the different brands will work. But how well they work is a totally different matter altogether…

A custom map is a very different beast and are in my opinion dangerous territory, it doesnt take much to go wrong with the fueling or boost and you have a dead engine and an expensive repair. Engine maps contain many vairables and just getting one wrong can make the car run very badly or kill it.

This is and isn’t accurate!! As Justin has pointed out a custom map is simply another alternative to what we call ‘an off the shelf map’. It’s written in exactly the same way and should/may be done by the same people who write the ‘off the shelf’ maps. If the person writing the ‘custom’ remap cannot do the job properly then their ‘standard’ remaps won’t be much cop either IMO. The same processes are involved, just with a different car/setup. If the person who writes the software knows what they are doing, the risk is no greater than installing an ‘off the shelf remap’. (assuming, in both cases, that the car being remapped is up to standard!).

However it CAN BE dangerous when you take your car to someone who doesn’t know what they are doing!

All that said you buy a standard ( I use the word standard to Include MTE even though MTE do require you to send them a indentity file from your car to get the best tune, although they also offer an off the shelf version) reamp and you are increasing the stess on your engine and drive train, even though all the tuning sites claim it wont affect the car, well it will. If you dont use the extra power then it will have no effect, if you do then it stands to reason that more boost and more fuel equals more power which equals more component stress. If you reamp a car with 150,000 miles to stage 3 dont be to suprised when something breaks. Volvos standard map isnt there to spoil your fun its used because it ensures longevity of the car.

I’d agree with that statement. If you tune the car beyond the manufacturers spec, then rag the living hell out of it, and don’t look after it properly, something may give eventually. Having said that, there are many cars floating around with colossal mileage running remaps and beyond.

If you are going for a "standard remap" then find someone who has EXACTLY the same car as you and ask their opinion, its really not much use someone with a 15 year old 850 running one of the Rica maps telling you that Rica is the best as the map for your 2 year old car will be totally different and so will the driving experience.

Absolutely! But you can get a good idea on what to expect, in terms of service and quality, from people experiences using different software providers.

There is the long and seemingly never ending debate about the Volvotuning issue. That should really be put to bed now as its no longer relevent to what is happening in the tuning world today.

That is totally wrong IMO. VolvoTuning was Hamish Lindsay and Adam Webber. Both of them are still around, and trying to make money from tuning Volvos. Just because VolvoTuning Ltd have folded up doesn’t mean that we are all safe from Adam and Hamish’s ££££ ups. They are still out there, just operating under a different guise.

Remaps are opinion based, the comments you get about which one is best is totally based in people expectations and perceptions. Not based in fact.

That’s not true at all. Since my ‘unfortunate’ incident, I’ve tried to grasp a better understanding of this tuning game. My ‘opinions’ are based on the facts I’ve read or witnessed, and most importantly my own personal experiences.

As far as I am aware no one has taken a map from all the main tuning companys and put them on the same car, then done a true comparison - based on facts.

I believe you’re correct. I for one would like to see this happen very much. IIRC, this was suggested at the one of the dyno days a few months ago, and the only person/company to step up to the plate was Don from Kalmar Union.

What happened to chris's car happened and it is very unfortunate indeed, but the instant you start playing with true custom maps then you are taking very big risks that applies to both the owner and the tuner.

I agree with you. In my case, I should have done more research than simply believed what I was told by the company that I had been using and spent a lot of money with for 3 years. At the end of the day, VolvoTuning (& HLM) just wanted to make money. That is the simple fact. They were not interested in giving me a decent product that did what it said on the tin, they were not interested in providing me with great customer service. They wanted one thing only, to make money. I was in the wrong for going to them in the first place. I should have trusted the people who told me so, and therefore I admit a certain amount of responsibility for what happened to my car. I made the decision to trust Adam Webber & Hamish Lindsay.

If you are bolting on some really different toys to your car and then remapping the ecu to use those toys you have to accept that you have just stepped into unknown territory and as such anything could happen if you are going this route have written agreement with the tuner as to who is responsible for what if it goes wrong.

Again, yes and no! It all depends on who you’re using to map your car. And no tuner in the world is gonna give you a piece of paper to say if your car blows up they admit liability.

If you are unsure, then ask the tuner to give you the name and address of someone whos car they have tuned that is the same as yours and ask the user their view. Any good tuner would not be afraid to give you this information, also make sure that they have been running the map for a while as problems can develop later that might not be evident at first.

That is fantastic advice. I wish I’d have done that before my troubles. If I had, I’d have realised that my car was the first P1 car for the amazing hybrid conversion. Not what I was told by the ever so truthful Hamish Lindsay.

So in short........ do your home work, talk to people who have the SAME car as you. Talk to ALL the tuners and if possible get a reference from them. You are moddifying the second most expensive thing you will ever buy, so be a smart buyer and understand all the risks.

I second that!!

[S70T5Chris]

Almost, but not quite from what I read now (here) and elsewhere. In a nutshell, I think it is :

Standard re-map, use any company/brand, each have their own merits.

With any custom re-map, be careful what you ask for and make sure the company doing it knows their stuff.

I think in both cases, you need to do your research. Even the 'off the shelf' maps may have their downsides.

[S70T5Chris]

I'm thinking of getting my ECU remapped.
Any recommendations?
RICA, BSR?

It's a 2.0t 2002 Cab.

Anyone had one remapped?
Any benefits MPG wise?

Cheers,
Tel

Hi Mate

Sorry for steering your thread and original question off in another direction!

I think the best thing you can do is find someone who has had a 2.0t remapped. I don't think anyone who's replied has!! Start a new thread 'has anyone with a 2.0t been remapped?' LOL!

Good luck with what ever you decide to go with!

Chris.

[Justin]

I believe you’re correct. I for one would like to see this happen very much. IIRC, this was suggested at the one of the dyno days a few months ago, and the only person/company to step up to the plate was Don from Kalmar Union.

I have been suggesting it for years Chris, but no one has ever been willing to put their money where their mouth is. Get a good base car, do a stock run then let the relevant companies tune the same ecu, same day, same rollers same fuel etc. Dead cause IMO but good luck.

On another note you are exactly the person, but in the same breath not the right person to be commenting on this thread and pulling wegal up. Just my opinion :)

[S70T5Chris]

I have been suggesting it for years Chris, but no one has ever been willing to put their money where their mouth is. Get a good base car, do a stock run then let the relevant companies tune the same ecu, same day, same rollers same fuel etc. Dead cause IMO but good luck.

On another note you are exactly the person, but in the same breath not the right person to be commenting on this thread and pulling wegal up. Just my opinion :)

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

[Justin]

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

I wouldn't as its just old news mate. Whether you prefer MTE or any other company makes no odds to me, whom you associate with has no interest to me either, let Don do it if he can get the otehrs too i will be suprised though, they were never willing before.....

Pulling up wasn't quite the right wording, more examining, none of it was offensive, just the issues you have had makes you the wrong person to be involved, but like i said in the same breath the right one.
This is all dead and buried AFAIK, its like digging up Guy Fawkes and asking him to answer to global warming for me. At the end of the day whats done is done, there is enough on the net not just here to warn people off if they looked, so like i said, nose in the air and carry on :)

[T5-TEZ]

I tell you what mate, i'd be willing to throw some money into a pot to do just that. Get a car, get an ecu with each of the different remaps, and see what happens on a dyno. How many others would be up for that? Not many I'd assume!!

You say no-one would put their money where their mouth is, but you're wrong. I know what you'd say, I'm biased, i'm a MTE follower, I'm a Kalmar fan, but I know Don would put his money where his mouth is because he believes in the product he sells. Who else would do that? And what does that tell you?

Edit: I'm not really 'pulling Wegal up'! I'm just responding to his comments, some I don't agree with, most I do. I don't think I've said anything to cause offense.

Well said Chris.

[S70T5Chris]

This is all dead and buried AFAIK, its like digging up Guy Fawkes and asking him to answer to global warming for me. At the end of the day whats done is done, there is enough on the net not just here to warn people off if they looked, so like i said, nose in the air and carry on :)

If you're referring to the Volvotuning/HLM, maybe you're right, however Like I said above the same people responsible for what happened to me are still around playing with peoples cars, so it is still relevant IMO. That won't change.

If you're referring to the debate between different remaps, that's far from dead and buried. That debate will go on forever and a day!! I have my reaosns why I believe RICA remaps are inferior to others. When someone asks, I''ll tell them!

[wegal]

S70T5CHRIS, no offence taken at all, thats what debate is about, only through sensible debates like this thread has so far been do we get the information that we need to make informed choices and decisions, your comments to my post are welcome as far as Im concerned.

I wasnt aware that Adam was still in the volvo tuning world. I am now also an MTE convert but I cannot complain at all about the service I recieved from HLM, even though I decided on a different map in the end for a variety of reasons, I cant really say anything bad about HLM or hamish as in my experience with them they have treated me in a very fair way. I dont want to go into details as its between me and HLM but my car developed an intermitant fault which HLM spent a great deal of time and money trying to fix, and never charged me a penny, which considering Hamish spent 2 days solid on two seperate occassions and wanted the car back to finish the job still at his expense I have no axe to grind with them at all. Even though I now run the MTE map I would hope that I would still be welcome at HLM, and in all fairness I would use them again should the need arise.

I genuinely think that you had an aweful experince there that is probably not representative of the level of service that HLM normally provide on day to day basis. As said though that is only my experience of them. Besides lets not make this a HLM bashing /defending thread, its so far been an interesting look into peoples perceptions of remapping... mine included !

[Mrsmopp]

Well said Chris.

Great contribution to the discussion :slap::hilarious

Regarding getting ALL the tuners to take part in the comparision I just cant see it ever happening.

Can you really see a company like Superchips co-operating? Or Upsolute? Volvo's must be such a small proportion of their market that we are almost insignificant (compared to the saxo's and the 316 beemers lol ;))

I think its great that Don is willing and able to put his products up and would be happy for independant comparisions to be carried out but I cant see many standing beside him with that attitude sadly :(

We can still hold out a little hope though..............

[T5-TEZ]

Great contribution to the discussion :slap::hilarious

Regarding getting ALL the tuners to take part in the comparision I just cant see it ever happening.

Can you really see a company like Superchips co-operating? Or Upsolute? Volvo's must be such a small proportion of their market that we are almost insignificant (compared to the saxo's and the 316 beemers lol ;))

I think its great that Don is willing and able to put his products up and would be happy for independant comparisions to be carried out but I cant see many standing beside him with that attitude sadly :(

We can still hold out a little hope though..............

I thought so.

[wegal]

Well there is a way to do this test but its expensive ! I dont think superchips and people like that are all that relevent anyway, the main remaps people use on their volvos are HLm Rica MTE and BSR, everyone but HLM offer their map in some form off ppc style system. I have the MTE one and a 3 year old car with an auto box so if dyno'd we only get WHP and not Crank bhp figures which are always frankly dubious on a rolling road anyway.

So how much is the Rica PPC and the BSR PPC ? I can reset my car to standard with the MTE softloader run it on a dyno, as a base test and then upload the other maps and repeat the excersice. 2 PPC's + 4 hours of dyno time ( awesome charge £100 per hour) is what about a grand ? not beyond the bounds of possibility really.

My only worry and I would want confirmation of this is that flashing my ECU repeatedly wont bugger it up otherwise a grand becomes 2 !

Wonder if Russ would supply a Rica PPC at a discount ? Or one of the BSR agents ? The PPC can be returned after the test so it could be reused for some one else ???? ( forgive my ignorance here maybe it cant)

A grand to put this debate to bed might just be worth it. If we did the test at HLM then we could include the HLM map as well. It doesnt matter what dyno we use so long as its all done on the same day at the same dyno. I also have more confidence in Hamish to dyno the car than say awesome as they struggled with an auto box.

If we can get a few people to contribute this could be a goer.... assuming some one like don or Tim Williams gives me some confidence it wont ££££ up my car !

[wegal]

In fact.... ill start the process..... Ill put £500 of my money into the experiment. any one care to join in ?

[S70T5Chris]

Well there is a way to do this test but its expensive ! I dont think superchips and people like that are all that relevent anyway, the main remaps people use on their volvos are HLm Rica MTE and BSR, everyone but HLM offer their map in some form off ppc style system. I have the MTE one and a 3 year old car with an auto box so if dyno'd we only get WHP and not Crank bhp figures which are always frankly dubious on a rolling road anyway.

So how much is the Rica PPC and the BSR PPC ? I can reset my car to standard with the MTE softloader run it on a dyno, as a base test and then upload the other maps and repeat the excersice. 2 PPC's + 4 hours of dyno time ( awesome charge £100 per hour) is what about a grand ? not beyond the bounds of possibility really.

My only worry and I would want confirmation of this is that flashing my ECU repeatedly wont bugger it up otherwise a grand becomes 2 !

Wonder if Russ would supply a Rica PPC at a discount ? Or one of the BSR agents ? The PPC can be returned after the test so it could be reused for some one else ???? ( forgive my ignorance here maybe it cant)

A grand to put this debate to bed might just be worth it. If we did the test at HLM then we could include the HLM map as well. It doesnt matter what dyno we use so long as its all done on the same day at the same dyno. I also have more confidence in Hamish to dyno the car than say awesome as they struggled with an auto box.

If we can get a few people to contribute this could be a goer.... assuming some one like don or Tim Williams gives me some confidence it wont ££££ up my car !


Fair play for offering your car to do the testing on!! I would also want confirmation that no damage would be caused to your car by trying lots of different maps on the ecu!

Like I said I would be very willing to put money into a pot to do this test. Russ is a BSR dealer as well as RICA. Like you say, maybe Russ could throw one of each in for a discount price?!! What you rekon Russ?! :smile: It would definately put an end to this on going debate.

If one remap is worse than another, there is absolute proof to say so. If there's nothing in it then that shuts everyone up also!

As for the 'doing it at HLM' option. I don't think it matters what dyno the runs are done on, so long as its the same for every run. And if, hypathetically it was done on your car, then whatever dyno you were most happy with is fair enough. But idealy I'd like to be there. Me going back to HLM? It would be lovely to see Hamish again, catch up on old times!!! :hilarious:hilarious

[Saaamon]

(For this comment i will base it on the two more popular companies.) Its all well and good getting the companies together and to test a car on one rolling road with all the products, but its not about fiqures, its how the cars go like on the road. Some people prefer progressive power deliever, such as an MTE and others want instant aggressive power deliever which from what i'm lead to believe that is what you can expect from a RICA. This doesn't mean to say either of the two re-maps are better or worse its just about what you want from your car.

[S70T5Chris]

In fact.... ill start the process..... Ill put £500 of my money into the experiment. any one care to join in ?

£500! Bloody hell you been on the sauce tonight?!

[Saaamon]

Re-maps have an adaptation period from what i'm lead to believe, please inform me if i'm wrong though. Does hamish use a dyno-dynamics rolling road?

[wegal]

If the dyno is clever enough then you can get all sorts of info logged i beleive ( i might be about to be corrected here) but AFR throttle position boost as well as BHP and torque all plotted on a graph would give you a very good indication of what to expect on the road.

Personally I think that the results will show very similar BHP and Torque peak figures but the fuelling boost and the torque / bhp graphs will be different, HLM map that I had was uber aggressive, even more so than a rica'd car Ive been in, the MTE is very progressive not been in one that has BSR.

So chris... do you think hamish would offer to buy you dinner, just for old times sake? lol.

[wegal]

£500! Bloody hell you been on the sauce tonight?!

Nope I just hate it when people say... hey lets do this then no one puts their money where there mouth is......It would be a very interesting day out and lets be honest would give me bragging rights for ££££in years to come !!!

Also its pretty safe to assume that the other £500 wont materialise lol

[Saaamon]

Could this not be made in to a charity event? Maybe some of the money for the dyno time could go towards a good cause? Possibly make a roling road day out of it?

[S70T5Chris]

If the dyno is clever enough then you can get all sorts of info logged i beleive ( i might be about to be corrected here) but AFR throttle position boost as well as BHP and torque all plotted on a graph would give you a very good indication of what to expect on the road.

Personally I think that the results will show very similar BHP and Torque peak figures but the fuelling boost and the torque / bhp graphs will be different, HLM map that I had was uber aggressive, even more so than a rica'd car Ive been in, the MTE is very progressive not been in one that has BSR.

So chris... do you think hamish would offer to buy you dinner, just for old times sake? lol.

I think you're right, from the fueling/boost/torque/bhp graphs you would gain a reasonable unserstanding of how the car would drive on the road. There's no doubt that it would provide a decent comparison between them, and prove if they were safe.

Would this dinner be worth several thousands of pounds? LOL!

[Tim Williams]

As Mrs Mopp has pointed out trying to get most tuners to supply maps is going to be very hard but do most not have a 14 day refund period? The other option is to use a Pre ME7 T5 and just insert the ECUs, picking 4 or 5 select forum members will give you all the maps you need. The hardest bit will be getting a good standard car.

[Mrsmopp]

As Mrs Mopp has pointed out trying to get most tuners to supply maps is going to be very hard but do most not have a 14 day refund period? The other option is to use a Pre ME7 T5 and just insert the ECUs, picking 4 or 5 select forum members will give you all the maps you need. The hardest bit will be getting a good standard car.

Herein lies the next problem, if a pre ME7 car is used as the base then it wont apply to the ME7 stuff so isn't really a thorough comparison and certainly not an up to date interpretation - and equally if the base car is ME7?

[S70T5Chris]

Herein lies the next problem, if a pre ME7 car is used as the base then it wont apply to the ME7 stuff so isn't really a thorough comparison and certainly not an up to date interpretation - and equally if the base car is ME7?

So what your saying se we need 2 cars, one ME7 one pre-ME7. Nice one, double the cars, double the maps. You just spent another grand! Typical woman!! :hilarious

Joking aside, I think this is achievable. Providing we could find people who would be willing to 'loan' their ecu's to the experiment. And we could find someone with a good standard pre-me7 car that would be willing for the test to be carried out on! Any takers?!

[Mrsmopp]

So what your saying se we need 2 cars, one ME7 one pre-ME7. Nice one, double the cars, double the maps. You just spent another grand! Typical woman!! :hilarious

Joking aside, I think this is achievable. Providing we could find people who would be willing to 'loan' their ecu's to the experiment. And we could find someone with a good standard pre-me7 car that would be willing for the test to be carried out on! Any takers?!

:uglyhamme Women are really good at spending other peoples money :P

Oh Did I just see your hand go up as a volunteer Chris? Or have I eaten too many haribo's tonight ;)

[MIKESC70T5]

My rica ppc for my me7 c70 arrives tomorrow. Talking to Russ yesterday,BSR sold there ppc's to Rica,unless i heard wrong.

[S70T5Chris]

:uglyhamme Women are really good at spending other peoples money :P

Oh Did I just see your hand go up as a volunteer Chris? Or have I eaten too many haribo's tonight ;)

My car wouldn't be any good. Had too much work done to it now. We would need a standard car to take the off the shelf remaps.

[MIKESC70T5]

My car wouldn't be any good. Had too much work done to it now. We would need a standard car to take the off the shelf remaps.


mines only got a jr filter.

[S70T5Chris]

mines only got a jr filter.

Once you've mapped your car Mikey, i'd be very interested to see a dyno run with AFR plots.

[MIKESC70T5]

Once you've mapped your car Mikey, i'd be very interested to see a dyno run with AFR plots.

It's arriving at work tomorrow,and on my break i'm plugging it in,4 minutes later it should all be done. I've filled up with v power this evening ready for my extra long drive home tomorrow night lol.

Put it on a dyno!!!!!!!!!!! i drive like miss daisy,the car would have a heart attack lol

[S70T5Chris]

It's arriving at work tomorrow,and on my break i'm plugging it in,4 minutes later it should all be done. I've filled up with v power this evening ready for my extra long drive home tomorrow night lol.

Put it on a dyno!!!!!!!!!!! i drive like miss daisy,the car would have a heart attack lol

I'll pay for it!?

[MIKESC70T5]

I'll pay for it!?

I don't mind being the guinea pig, would show if anything else on my car needs sorting too i suppose.
If it goes bang, are you paying for the new engine aswell lol.

[S70T5Chris]

I don't mind being the guinea pig, would show if anything else on my car needs sorting too i suppose.
If it goes bang, are you paying for the new engine aswell lol.

That's alright, I'm getting used to buying new engines! LOL!

[Flingel]

Hi Mate

Sorry for steering your thread and original question off in another direction!

I think the best thing you can do is find someone who has had a 2.0t remapped. I don't think anyone who's replied has!! Start a new thread 'has anyone with a 2.0t been remapped?' LOL!

Good luck with what ever you decide to go with!

Chris.

There's no way I'm lighting the blue touch paper again!!

Cheers,
Tel.

[Tim Williams]

Just for Mike I will post him for free a new Volvo air filter so he can return his car to standard if he is going to dyno it. He can sort out any other Halfords imitation type bits though...

[Justin]

If you are all serious about doing this then it needs to be as accurate as possible. Here are some main points to consider.

What are the objectives of the tests? If its performance at full throttle then the dyno will do the job, what it wont show is part throttle performance and real worl driving scenarios like town, country, motorway etc, it also wont show fuel economy, these are significant factors that differ between remaps.

I keep hearing the word "better", define it! Is it the peak figure, area under the curve, fuelling. Also define "safer" From what I've read marco like to run his cars rich at 11:1, where as others like the owner of wothrline say that 13:1 is ideal, what about Hieco, BSR, Rica, and who is correct? Who's definition is going to be used as safe, and why? Deciding by forum consensus is not good enough. Especially as none of us on here know precisely what the tuners criteria are.

What other measurements are going to be looked at, if you want to see how "safe" a map is you also need to measure EGT, and not calculated, but by using an actual EGT probe. AFR alone as a measurement of engine safety is no use as it doesnt take into account EGT, Intake temps or ignition timing. Surely too all of these factors will be affected by heatsoak for example, which is going to be an issue on any dyno.

Incorrectly setup and loaded dyno's will give inaccurate results, FACT, so where are you taking the car?

Environmental issues will also affect the results too, the first cold run of the day will be better than midday when the air tempreature outside has raised by say 6°C. You would in that case need a climate controlled workshop to be 100% fair.

In order to eliminate any bias or interference, the selected maps must not be labelled rica bsr etc, but map A, map B etc, and they should be run in no sequential order to allow variables like heatsoak, they should also be allowed to cool between runs, this is going to take a considerable amount of dyno time.

To allow for adaption, the car should be dyno'ed, then driven for 30+ miles of varying styles then re dyno'ed.

Which maps are you testing, HLM use oscarli and autologic, then there is Rica MTE BSR and Hieco. Thats 6 maps to purchase and run for hours on a dyno. And it gets worse....What about the differnt ECU's? 4.3, 4.4, ME7, ME9, Denso, and thats without the diesel cars. What about initial cost, diagnostics, after sales support, this is a huge undertaking lads if your going to do it right :)

[wegal]

To do it properly Justin is simply not possible, we do not have available to us the testing facilitys of a large organisation, therefore all we can do is offer up an example of what the differences are on one car. Those differences will not be the same on all cars but should be a reasonable representation of what the maps do.

Safe - rich is safe... however rich buggers the MPG.

For me all I think we will get is a set of graphs that will show how the power is fed in on WOT this is the most dangerous time for an engine. It will show how the boost comes in and when and what level of fueling you achieve. It will provide a final power increase over standard. We will then have a set of graphs that people can compare and argue about till they are blue in the face, but there will at least be a sample of what the different maps do to any one car. Which is a base line test that is all we can achieve.

To really do this properly requires the engine out and on a engine dyno in a controlled environment, this is clearly well beyond the means of ordinary folks like us.

What do we hope to achieve.... a set of graphs taken from one car on one dyno on one day. That is the fairest comparison we could make without investing 20 to 30 grand in this test.

For the real petrol heads it will no doubt be a waste of time and the experiment will have holes picked in it for fun, but for the layman, it will give an indication of what sort of power increases to expect, that is as much as we can hope to achieve. A grand to run that test is probably worth it. If I win the lottery then we can have real fun and do a complete test on every engine varient and every map varient. However thats not possible, so surely its better to have some information, even if it is possibly flawed than no information surrounded by speculation and opinion.

The maps will give an indication of how the car will drive once remapped, the torque graph will show how aggressive the power release is and how smooth it is. The AFR will show if the engine is running a bit lean, which will be fine for road use but might be a problem on a track day, where the engine is being pushed to the limits for long periods, iginition timing is pretty irrelevent as the engine safety systems control this.

As I have said its just gives a base line indication of what might happen if you pick one map or the other, its not going to be definative.

[Justin]

Wegal, Ignition timing is hugely relevant, its affects the EGT, Its not just controlled by the safety systems, its part of the map process of optimisation. Ignoring these would make the comparison worthless, even for the layman.

Also worth noting on the rich and lean side is has the map been optimised for performance or economy, see the rica maps are a bit of both, not sure re MTE and others though???

And flawed results being better than none is just daft mate, whats the point.......oh and if your spending a grand your only going to be able to test one map and have enough to pay for the dyno...........

[wegal]

Further to this.....

Hamish has called me and seeing as this has remained an intelligent discussion he has offered one of his maps on my car FOC. He has also offered his dyno and his time installing the maps etc etc. Hamish has stated to me that he doesnt really care who's is best but he like most people would be interested in seeing what if any difference there is between the maps.

So personal opinions aside, I think that Hamish should be applauded as the first tuner to step up to the mark and offer real and genuine assistance on this little test.

He is obviously concerned that should this go ahead at his garage that he doesnt have a hostile crowd gathered whilst he is offering his services to try and conduct the most useful and impartial test we can within the very limited parameters that we are going to be able to assess.

No matter what your views of HLM I feel that Hamish has just made a very generous and genuine offer of help.

Justin.... I know that this test may seem a bit pointless but its not. It WILL show the main differences between the maps at WOT. That is all we can test. Drivability is not measurable, thats purely opinion based, what suits you may not suit me. It will only show this test on one car and one engine with one control system, but it WILL show the differences on one car which may translate to others to a greater or lesser degree. Maybe for my own interest it would show which map produces the most power on my car. Maybe a waste of time maybe not, but one tuner IS interested in the results so it cant be a total waste of time and effort.

[Justin]

Hey dont mind me, but someone has to throw a spanner :) I would say this is one of the most informative and open discussions that has ever covered these subjects, roll on ;)

[Alan M]

When is the test going to take place? Are spectators permitted to come along and watch?

[S70T5Chris]

When is the test going to take place? Are spectators permitted to come along and watch?

Nothing, AFAIK, has been set in stone or properly organised as yet. But the ideas are flying a round, and I think if things keep going the way they are, this experiment would be a definate posibility.

[S70T5Chris]

Further to this.....

Hamish has called me and seeing as this has remained an intelligent discussion he has offered one of his maps on my car FOC. He has also offered his dyno and his time installing the maps etc etc. Hamish has stated to me that he doesnt really care who's is best but he like most people would be interested in seeing what if any difference there is between the maps.

So personal opinions aside, I think that Hamish should be applauded as the first tuner to step up to the mark and offer real and genuine assistance on this little test.

He is obviously concerned that should this go ahead at his garage that he doesnt have a hostile crowd gathered whilst he is offering his services to try and conduct the most useful and impartial test we can within the very limited parameters that we are going to be able to assess.

No matter what your views of HLM I feel that Hamish has just made a very generous and genuine offer of help.

Justin.... I know that this test may seem a bit pointless but its not. It WILL show the main differences between the maps at WOT. That is all we can test. Drivability is not measurable, thats purely opinion based, what suits you may not suit me. It will only show this test on one car and one engine with one control system, but it WILL show the differences on one car which may translate to others to a greater or lesser degree. Maybe for my own interest it would show which map produces the most power on my car. Maybe a waste of time maybe not, but one tuner IS interested in the results so it cant be a total waste of time and effort.

Personal feelings aside....

The fact that Hamish has offered one of his maps FOC, and offered the use of his time and dyno for the test is very generous indeed. I can't deny that.

After thinking about it, I have one main concern (got absolutely nothing to do with my feelings or previous dealings with Hamish), that using Hamish's dyno will not be impartial and will always cause a lot of reason for people to dispute the findings. Just a thought.

[Alan M]

Can't a standard run be done then compare the maps to that for comparison? Would that not be a fair test?

[Yosser]

using Hamish's dyno will not be impartial

I'm not baiting here (honest :)), but can you explain how that is so?

Surely no matter how innacurate the measuring machine is or is not, all measurements are made by the same machine and are therefore valid in relation to each other.

Or am I missing something?

[Wombatbomb]

Or am I missing something?

Operator error ;)

[Yosser]

Operator error ;)

Ok then, have the ECU's held by someone other than the operator in order that the operator is unaware what the car is running at any given time.

[wegal]

Im going to be very very clear here. Hamish rang me. Hamish was interested in the results. He was not and he was very clear about this interested in making his software look better than anyones else's. Hamish's view was that remapping petrols is a very small aspect of his business, and that his sole interest was in the differences that the different maps made. Hamish was very clear that this was by no means a definative test and that he wanted to do this fair and square, no messing no tweaking no bull££££.

I have watched hamish run his dyno, and he does know what he is doing. The dyno jet is also not an easy machine to fool. He is offering to not just mesure the parameters that we have discussed but EVERY parameter that the Dynojet can record, the list is exhaustive. If he was looking to "fiddle" it then there is no way he would be prepared to do this. I had a long chat with Hamish and he was very clear that he would want this to be a real test done properly. He also did not insist that we use his dyno for his map. He simply made a very very generous offer.

Please please please do NOT bismirch Hamishs generosity on this matter I dont care what you may think of him, it does not detract from what he has offered here. Lets be very clear.... this could take 10 hours or more to do properly. Thats over £1000 worth of dyno time alone, not to mention the map at £300 ish. It would be stupid at this stage to in anyway imply that hamish is trying to get one over. He is not. Bearing in mind that I am running a MTE map I have nothing to gain here. I am truely impartial. I am sure that it would be possible to have impartial overseers on this project. In fact I would insist on it to prevent the Oh he did this or that bull.

So before gobbing off please take a minute to ask... would you be prepared to put up £1300 of your money to make this happen, because that is what Hamish has offered us. If your not able to see that through your own prejudice then please dont scupper his for the rest of us.

Hamish has offered to do this as methodically and scientifically as is possible. He has a real and genuine curiosity about the result. You will notice he has not posted on this thread, this is because he is aware of some anti HLM feelings and doesnt want to see a very good thread spoiled by silly comments. I think that says a lot about the man and his interest in this.

Futher more I asked him about possible damage to the ECU, he said it was possible but not likely so long as it was done properly, he also said that if the ECU did get ££££ed he had the tools to sort them out, whilst he could not promise to fix a busted ecu because it would depend on how busted it was he would be prepared to do every thing in his power to fix it.

Please dont take this personally anyone its not meant as a dig, it would just be a shame to see it all implode because a some ill feeling that has no place in this thread.

Thankyou
David

[S70T5Chris]

I too am purely interested in the results. More than anything else, I want to see what maps do what, and most of all how safe they are. The saftey of the fueling, I consider to be the most important thing to be looking at.

I was not knocking Hamish personally above (as i said), I appreciate his offer very much. It will allow us to carry out this test with very little cost involved, and actaully turn our 'idea' into reality. My concerns would be the same if it was suggesed we used Russ's or Don's RR (should they had one!).

I'd like to state categorically that my previous issues with Hamish are 100% set aside where this test is concerned. I'm genuenly interested in the results I hope us to achieve, that is it. I don't even have any feelings towards which map would 'come out on top' or any of that crap.

[Liddo]

Thread Closed?????

:D

[Yosser]

For the record, I have no axe to grind with Hamish. I'm currently running one of his ECU's in my car and am happy with both the product and the service I received.

I would be as curious to see this experiment conducted as the next guy, in fact, I was intending to do a side by side comparision with an MTE map in my own car but (so far) I've been unable to source a standard ECU at what I consider a reasonable price.

Push on, it's a good idea.

[wegal]

Thread Closed?????

:D


I really hope not ! lol

[AlanG]

What is this all about? We all have T5s of some descrcription. They are all very powerfull,fast cars.The chappy with 590hp wont be beaten so whats the point in bickering? Be happy wi your car,one day you will look back. One day,you may be driving a diesel. Some of them are very entertaining nowadays but they don't rev or sound like a T5. BMW 535d 286bhp!!!Still only a 3.0 litre
Same as the old M6 as it was in the late 80's
What about the Rica D5?
It's all relative. On the road it's different. I raced a 535d (new model) with my old 2.5 20V manual. Mine was quicker up to daft speed,probably down to revs. Chipped T5 now and won't be takin' any prisoners...........