Help Needed Not Ruining It

[850 Turbo Hearse]

wotcha,

ok, my 304 ecu has just arrived and Im told that I need to rip off and throw away my bleed valve/ mbc thingy (dont think we ever got to the bottom of what it was, did we?) and re-plumb my original boost control solenoid. that sounds easy enough to me.

but, lets assume Im an idiot, ok? so, just to be sure.

my boost control solenoid is plumbed as follows:

yellow out from bcs: goes to manual boost control/ bleed valve thingy then down to here.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/houdini00007/CIMG1170.jpg?t=1222248115

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/houdini00007/CIMG1171.jpg?t=1222248162

which at a guess, is the waste gate solenoid/ actuator?

blue out from bcs: goes into plastic hose behind the MAF shown in the lower part of this picture.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/houdini00007/CIMG1173.jpg?t=1222247996

and red out from bcs: appears to go down to join original hose as a joiner has been put in (shown resting on top of the elbow bend in the picture above), though where it goes from there I cant tell as it gets dark and too tight to see/ photograph. but it runs down on the passenger side of the car, in the area of the top right hand corner, and looks unmolested or like it leads to anything else thats been added/ fiddled with. Im guessing it goes to the turbo compresser signal?

so, to remove the MBC, is all I need to do is:

disconect the yellow out from the bcs to the MBC end, and disconnect the underside of the MBC (which goes down to the item shown in pics 1 and 2) and connect the hose coming from the item shown to the yellow dot of the bcs.

all the other pipes (blue and red) can stay the same? have I got this right? seems a bit simple to me. but then, Im a bit simple too, so I thought best to ask.

After thats done, do I need to go fill up with decent fuel before I put the new ecu on? at the mo, its just reg fuel.

Thanks in advance for any help/ insults offered.

:)

[Rob_ioClean]

I'd put it back to stock, then use as much petrol as possbile, fill up to the brim with super, go out for another run to get rid of the normal petrol left, then fit rica :)!

[dooby]

Hiya,

from what I can see in the 1st photo you want to remove the MBC which looks like it's nestling behind the silver strut brace in the black upper engine mount arm metal framework, and join those two pipes back together (or better still, run some new pipe).

The item down behind the engine near the bulkhead in the 1st picture is your wastegate actuator, and should be connected directly to the boost control solenoid.

I think you are recommended to run a RICA304 on super unleaded. I use Tesco 99 RON or Shell V Power.

Just a thought, in the last picture showing all 3 pipes on the BCS, is the rightmost pipe connected to the black plastic pipe? It almost looks like it's not connected to anything. That would be wrong, it connects to a small black protruding nipple on the turbo air intake pipe, just after the Mass Air Flow meter (which has a 4 pin electrical connector). There are 2 nipples on mine, one is blanked off, the other goes to my BCS.

HTH, Pete

[850 Turbo Hearse]

Hiya,

from what I can see in the 1st photo you want to remove the MBC which looks like it's nestling behind the silver strut brace in the black upper engine mount arm metal framework, and join those two pipes back together (or better still, run some new pipe).

so I was right? wow. who knew that would ever happen?


The item down behind the engine near the bulkhead in the 1st picture is your wastegate actuator, and should be connected directly to the boost control solenoid.

score two for me!


Just a thought, in the last picture showing all 3 pipes on the BCS, is the rightmost pipe connected to the black plastic pipe? It almost looks like it's not connected to anything. That would be wrong, it connects to a small black protruding nipple on the turbo air intake pipe, just after the Mass Air Flow meter (which has a 4 pin electrical connector). There are 2 nipples on mine, one is blanked off, the other goes to my BCS.


no, its not connected to the black platic pipe, its connected to another peice of rubber hose that looks like the original, though where it goes from there is difficult to say, other than down into the dark.

given that all thats been added is the MBC on another line, is there any reason the part your talking about would have been removed/ changed? would the car still run if it was missing?

thanks for your help Pete, much appreciated.

[dooby]

Ah,

in that case I think I'm just mis-remembering which order the BCS pipes are in. On closer inspection it looks like the middle pipe is going to the black plastic air intake pipe, so the right-most blue hose must be going (via the original black rubber hose) down to the turbo.

The turbo one has positive pressure, and the solenoid will either direct it to open the wastegate (if max boost pressure has been obtained) or vent it harmlessly back into the air inlet.

Does this diagram help?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/irf200/volvo%20related/mbcinstallation.jpg

Cheers, Pete

[850 Turbo Hearse]

awesome, thanks pete :)

whats the RIP in your spec profile there?

ooo, and could you drop me a line about how you're liking that Koni suspension if you have a mo?

matt@roadmagazine.co.uk

[dooby]

Hiya,

RIP means Reverse Intercooler Pipework. Here's diagrams of the two layouts:

http://www.thevolvosite.com/850/volvo-850-turbo-chargers-and-components.html

the top diagram is what I've now got, the next diagram is what you've probably got.

Very early 850 turbos got the RIP layout, but allegedly the Swedes found problems with the throttle body icing up so changed to the longer layout. In theory, RIP is less distance so slightly less laggy. Not sure it's measurable though...

I like the yellow adjustable Koni and the springs they came with for the better handling at the front, but I missed the load carrying capacity at the back of the self-leveling Nivomat setup so I've gone back to that on the rear. If yours will just be for tracking and not family holidays you'd be OK with Koni all round I reckon.

I quite fancy trying Koni FSD (frequency selective damping) at the front, which should give the best of both worlds - comfy when pootling around and stiff when throwing it about.

HTH, Pete

[850 Turbo Hearse]

ok, piping all done, ran the car with standard ecu to check its all ok, and all seems to be well. it actually felt better with the bleed valve off, and peaked a little higher on the boost guage, so maybe it was screwed right down for some reason.

anyway, Ive fitted the new 304 and if Im honest Id say that it feels pretty much no better.

it's peaking at WOT on an auxilliary guage at just over .7 bar, which was what it was with the standard ECU. even allowing for guage inaccuracies, I would have thought that the needle would at least be higher with the new ecu, even if not 100% accurate. I was assuming that the 304 would peak at something like 1.1 bar, is this correct?

so, do I have a boost leak (nee Irf)? or is it something else?

[Tomcat]

If the boost gauge isn't off the white bit then your not running enough boost. Cheque your vac lines for leaks.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

the standard guage isnt being exceeded, by probably a final 10-15%, or 25% of the white bit.

Ive just been through all the boost hoses (the three in my picture that lead to the bcs) and replaced them with new thicker stuff, even though they all looked ok. Its still only boosting to .7ish, not reaching .8.

what else could I check? are there other boost/ vac lines that I could replace?

there is the 'tree' at the front of the engine that everyone keeps referring to, but from what I can see, two of those ports are blanked, and the other two lead off with very fine hose, one of which Im assuming goes to the dash guage, the other of which I havent investigated other than to check the elbows ok, and it is. should there be something else there?

I think that my aux guage and my standard guage are pretty well calibrated, so Im convinced its not an under- reading.

[Rob_ioClean]

You have definatly got either a leak or a worn turbo! How many miles on the beast?

I suppose it could be the bcs.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

150k.

if theres a leak, Im buggered if I can find it. Not literally, mind, I dont care that much.

if its a worn turbo wouldnt it still show a change for the modified ecu, at least try but not produce it, or would it be a case that .7 is all it can manage?

[Tomcat]

Could be a weak spring in the wastegate. May need a couple of turns to take the slack out of it, to be honest this is why I had mine fitted for me, at least that way you have someone on hand to say what's wrong etc...

[850 Turbo Hearse]

Could be a weak spring in the wastegate. May need a couple of turns to take the slack out of it

how do I do this? were talking about the thing at the back with the far left pipe going to it, yes?

[Tomcat]

To have it done properly you usually need a gauge, I couldn't really tell you how best to do it, I'm sure some of our more knowledgeable members could though......Anyone??.

[nathT5]

surely if another part is faulty or theres a leek, an ECU that adds around 75bhp will still make a big difference to how it was before,
would,nt it???

[irf]

nath, just so you know, regardless of what you've read, an ecu can NOT add 75bhp.

yes it is a pet hate of mine but justifiably so IMHO.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

hi folks, sorry to necropost this but im still having issues.

sent the ecu back and got mine reprogged to make sure that it wasnt an ecu issue, and refitted, still no extra performance, peaking at .7 bar.

have renewed all the pipes, am confident I dont have any leaks.

spoke with the chap whom I got the ECU from, who suggested that I remove the DV and see if that makes a difference, and then remove the yellow feed from the BCS to the wastegate to see what the turbo is capable of.

so, removed DV and blocked off hoses, WOT in 3rd, no increas, WOT in 4th peaking at about .8-.8.5, so a slight increase.

stopped removed yellow line out from the bcs and let the boost very slowly build up as advised to see what it was capable of.

WOT in 3rd was struggling to get .5 bar and WOT in 4th got .8ish again.

speaking with the guy again he says this means that the turbo is giving all its got to give at .8ish, and I accept that as its done 150k after all. but, why with the hose off didnt it just boost to .8 in 3rd and 4th? why was it lower in 3rd? I dont get that, do you? I cant accept it's just one of those things Im afraid. It'll bother me.

Is there something else I could have overlooked? Could it be a faulty something else? could it be the way my dv is plumbed in as Ive suggested on that other thread about DV's? If no, that's fine, I just want to understand whats going on more than anything.

And, if all else fails, where to get a turbo and how much? Or a waste of time for the money do you think? the cars not worth all the much, it makes little sense to plunge tons of money into it.

It's funny, but I was dead happy with car before, and now I've messed with it make it better I feel like it's no longer good enough or that it's disappointing by virtue of the fact that it's still as good as it once was. I should have just left well alone maybe, and kept my money in my pocket. rats.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

by the way, with the DV off, on lift the car still sounds like it's venting to atmosphere through the cone-filter or something. It's crazy but it sounds even louder than it was before, and more chattery rather than hissy. whats that mean?

[850 Turbo Hearse]

long story made shorter, with the new ecu on the car is not in any way faster or more torquey on or off boost. I would say it's exactly the same. I dont say this in any way to blame the provider- it is after all the risk you run doing it without inspection first- but it is annoying as I was hoping for an instant lighting bolt, lazy **** that I am.

again, rats.

[Tomcat]

Check your hoses, the rubber boost pipes (The big ones) can split, have a look at the one coming off the throttle housing, a small pipe comes off this and they tend to split at the join.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

theyre all fine- I've been through the whole thing. Theres no splits, im pretty sure of it.

[dooby]

Hiya,

if we can get a meet together I can run the ECU in my car to rule that in or out. I don't think that's where the problem will be for what it's worth.

If you're hearing a dump noise with no dump valve that's interesting. On the turbo, do you have the stock recirculating valve, or a blanking plate?

Here's a piccy:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii300/DOO13Y/Photo001-3.jpg

That's a stock re-circ valve (the triangle thing), a blanking plate looks like this:

http://www.partsforvolvosonline.com/product_info.php?products_id=4505

If you have the stock recirc valve and you hear a dumping noise maybe the rubber membrane inside is knackered, passing boost air straight back into the inlet tract. It's fiddly to get the 3x 10mm bolts out (use a 10mm ratchet spanner with a bendy neck) but if you can get it off you can check the rubber isn't torn.

If it turns out to be the turbo I have the TD04HL-15G I took off my car available for sale (that's what the photo above is of).

If you want to check if the turbo is knackered the best way is to remove the inlet pipe that comes down from the air box, and check the play in the compressor wheel. Some radial play is OK as the bearing won't have oil squirting through it with the engine off... If you can push it in and out that's not great, it means the thrust bearing is wearing through if I remember rightly.

I didn't hear my car dumping ~15PSI when I ran with an airbox and an uprated panel filter, I think most people don't hear the recirc dumping until you go to an enclosed cone filter like this IPD one:

http://www.ipdusa.com/Volvo-850/Filters-&-Tune-Up/Air-Filters/Short-Ram-Intake/p-72-167-656-3546/

Or the Simota I'm running:

http://www.partsforvolvosonline.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_178_928&products_id=5569

HTH, Pete

[850 Turbo Hearse]

hI Pete, thanks for this.

I dont have the stock one, I have a Bailey and a forge blanking plate, which Im (again) pretty confident isnt leaking. any ideas if that makes any difference to what youve written above?

one thing Ive noticed, the dump valve is manifesting a bit of oil at its vent points. that a sign of a worn turbo?

drop me a mail about your other turbo chum? matt@roadmagazine.co.uk

[dooby]

OK it's not the recirc valve then :-)

You could still check the turbo for play if you want.

The turbo will always pass a bit of oil I think, but the more the worse as it were.

A bit of oil coming out of the DV isn't a problem but if it's getting so it's blowing out of the drain hole in the bottom of the intercooler and pooling in a gunky mess in the air tray under the engine then it's probably time to think about refurbishing the turbo.

I'll drop you an email about my spare turbo.

HTH, Pete

[t5 pete]

If you have a hynes manual it shows you where all the vacume pipes go

[850 Turbo Hearse]

If you have a hynes manual it shows you where all the vacume pipes go

what if i dont? :D

[BigV]

I pretty much had the same issue with my first 850 t5. I had an MBC fitted and basically whatever I did I could never get it to boost past about .7bar...... It also had about 155k on the clock.

These engines are good for big miles, but I am convinced they lose a hefty amount of power with age, and unless you are willing to replace almost every pipe and seal in the engine I think that you can be pretty much stuck with the car as it is.......... that is my opinion mind.

Have you checked the ignition system. leads/plugs/dizzy cap etc...... I only ask because I had my current car fitted with a 280 ecu this week and the car had a terrible misfire until we replaced the cap and arm..... and that has been well looked after and not thrashed (well before I bought it anyway....)

Also have you checked the turbo for play, it is easy to do by removing the airbox piping as previously mentioned in this tread........... any fault codes been read? Checked all the rubber elbows, including the one which is hidden by the inlet manifold (I think thats what it is called), drivers side.... very hard to spot until you know where it is......


You are already getting 11psi, so it would only have to be a tiny leak...... I mean does it hold boost ok, or does it tail off all the time?

[irf]

two things come to mind. easy for me to say, not so easy for you to check though unfortunately.

it could be a blocked cat. happened to someone here recently.

could be that the wastegates cracked or is starting to crack.

[850 Turbo Hearse]

Have you checked the ignition system. leads/plugs/dizzy cap etc...... I only ask because I had my current car fitted with a 280 ecu this week and the car had a terrible misfire until we replaced the cap and arm..... and that has been well looked after and not thrashed (well before I bought it anyway....)

:D

I havent, but truth be told theres no misfiring or anything, so Im assuming its ok. Ive changed and uprated the plugs already tho.



Also have you checked the turbo for play, it is easy to do by removing the airbox piping as previously mentioned in this tread

ok, what am I check for play in? the impeller? the bearing? what? will it be obvious?


.......... any fault codes been read?

nothing flashed up while Ive had, would it display a warning light or owt? I havent read/ had it read tho. think I need to? Again, the car goes brilliantly well, I was just tempted by the idea that I might be able to make it go faster.


Checked all the rubber elbows, including the one which is hidden by the inlet manifold (I think thats what it is called), drivers side.... very hard to spot until you know where it is......

where? Im not sure where you mean? know of a photo/ diagram?


You are already getting 11psi, so it would only have to be a tiny leak...... I mean does it hold boost ok, or does it tail off all the time?

no, it holds just fine. its a mystery, eh?

Thanks for your thoughts chum :)

[BigV]

Well, I am pretty much out of ideas to be honest lol

http://volvospeed.com/Repair/vacuum_lines.php shows a couple of the elbows/pipes which can leak......

I suppose your BCS could be faulty, not sure how to test that without replacing it or putting an MBC on.

[PNuT]

you need to seal the forge blanking plates with sealant IMHO..... dont rely on the stupid o rings they fit ;)